Did you know you’re most attractive when you are authentically you? Well, that’s precisely what this week’s guest, Therapy Jeff, says! Jeff Guenther, known as Therapy Jeff, joins Lily for a conversation about the intricacies of modern dating, the evolution of therapy in the age of social media, and authentic self-expression. 

Therapy Jeff’s insights on modern dating and mental health are a breath of fresh air. In a world saturated with dating advice and unrealistic expectations, his book, ‘Big Dating Energy,’ offers a refreshing perspective: that lasting love stems from embracing one’s authentic self. In an era of self-doubt and comparison, Jeff reminds us that we are inherently lovable and deserving of genuine connection.

We get into:

• What dating advice/problems/framing Jeff’s book, Big Dating Energy, aims to solve

• Addressing beliefs like “It’s my fault, or I’m not good enough.” 

• The idea of feminine and masculine energy and the notion of “not being in your feminine enough.”

• Cognitive overload and how to get in touch with your intention when using social media or dating apps

Links:

Lily’s book, Thank You More Please, is available for preorder right now and you can grab it and the preorder bonuses with this link!

Jeff’s book, Big Dating Energy
Therapy Jeff’s website
Therapy Jeff on TikTok
Therapy Jeff on Instagram

Show transcript:

Lily: [00:00:00] Hey, I’m Lily Womble, former top matchmaker and founder of Date Brazen. After setting up hundreds, I realized that with coaching, women could match themselves better than anyone else ever could. With my unconventional feminist approach, I’ve helped women around the world build courageous and self trust filled love lives.

And now I’m here to support you. Get ready because I’m about to show you the exact steps you need to attract a soul quenching partnership and feel amazing about yourself along the way. This is the Date Brazen Podcast. Hello, gorgeous friends. Welcome to another episode of the Date Brazen podcast. Today, I have an iconic guest, truly iconic.

You know him from TikTok, from Instagram, from his viral videos, telling, teaching you how to be in relationships more wholeheartedly and authentically. How to connect yourself and how to date other people. Like you’re the shit it’s, it’s all good stuff. We’re going to [00:01:00] get into all of it. Jeff Guther is a licensed professional counselor in Portland, Oregon, practicing since 2005.

And you may know him as Therapy Jeff on all these platforms. He works with couples and individuals, and he makes, uh, again, iconic videos for TikTok and Instagram. And he hosts a weekly podcast called Big Dating Energy, which just launched, opened its doors, I was going to say. And you can now pre order his book, also titled Big Dating Energy.

And, uh, it’s going to change your life and you can learn more about that. We’re just going to insert the plug here at therapyjeff. com. Um, and, uh, let’s get into it, Jeff. So glad you’re here.

Jeff: I’m so glad I’m here too. And I’m glad that you said that my book is going to change your life. That’s uh, it

Lily: is claimant.

Jeff: Yes. No, I mean, I agree. It definitely will change your life. Um, I got you. I’ve, I’ve read a little bit of your book so far. I mean, it’s really funny and very readable, just like mine. Uh, which is, which is [00:02:00] important when you read a book, because it’s not, it’s also like, you know, we want to give like great dating and relationship advice, but you also like, want somebody to keep on turning the pages, you know?

Lily: Yes. And it’s like, why are we here? I mean, we, yes, the dating advice, but. The stories are the most, I think the most compelling and like relatable thing. How did you, we, your listener, we talked before this, so I’m, I’m just going to jump into the conversation, but how did you think about this book and what did you, what was your intention with this book?

Like, tell us more about big dating energy.

Jeff: Oh, well, the, my first idea was not to write a dating and relationship book. Actually. Um, the, the first idea I was like, you know, why. I’m going to write a memoir, like I’m so interesting and important. I’m going to write a memoir about my life. And it was, it was kind of like coming from this place of, I want to write a memoir because I want to write the [00:03:00] narrative.

I want to claim the narrative of my family, like there’s a sort of like little kid adolescent inside of me that was very like reserved and shy and didn’t speak up and grew up in a family with like lots of people that spoke really loud and took up space and all the energy. And so I, as a kid was just like, well, maybe I’m just going to be quiet.

And play with my blocks and do my thing and be a good kid, whatever. But that didn’t like totally work out. Uh, but like a lot of times, like your sibling sort of like corners, the market on getting attention this way. And so then the other sibling is like, I’m going to try to corner market over here.

Sometimes that works and sometimes that doesn’t work, but because I was sort of like shy and reserved in my family, there’s a lot of stories that have been told by everyone else in the family. And so I was like, you know what? All of a sudden I’m going viral on TikTok and Instagram and I’m getting some attention and I’m gonna [00:04:00] write the narrative.

And so I talked to my literary agent and my, my friends and my buddies. I was like, this is what I’m going to do. It’s going to be a memoir, but it’s also going to be like self healthy. Right? Um, and then I started. And I was like, this is so hard and so difficult. Not, not only is it just like hard to write a book, but like when you’re writing a memoir, you have to do so much emotional work where you’re,

Lily: it is excavation.

My

Jeff: God. Yeah. I was like, so, you know, I’ve done so much therapy and I felt like I’ve like excavated emotionally all the relationships, but it turns out there’s more excavating that needs to be done. And there was just like a, uh, a tone of like anger that was coming through, which is not

Lily: interesting. You

Jeff: don’t really.

Like, that’s a turnoff. I feel like when you’re reading a memoir and someone’s really angry, it’s like, work out your shit, bud, and then come back, you know? So it’s like, I’m not

Jeff: going to do this. And then I [00:05:00] was like, you know what? I’m going to give the people what they want. I give like dating and relationship advice.

I feel like I’ve already written a few books, just like with all the scripts that I write for every single video that I make. Um, so I’ll just take like, uh, I’ll make it like 12 chapters. I’ll break up all the chapters that are around whatever, 3000 words, and I’m just going to go for it. And it turned out that like writing a chapter actually feels very limiting.

Like at first I was like, how am I going to fill a whole chapter? Um, yeah, but then I was just like, each one of these chapters can be its own book and I wish it was. You know, um, so I love

Lily: that.

Jeff: Yeah. So that was like a funny challenge. Um, and then it just sort of flowed from there. I was like, okay, like I love talking about dating and relationship advice.

And I also think that I’m like kind of funny and have an interesting voice. So I’m just going to go for it. And I did.

Lily: Yeah, well, seeing as we’re two dating professionals and you are a therapist, I am not weird. [00:06:00] Like, I want to get into because I have very hot takes on this. What about your dating book was solving for what you’re angry about in the dating world or solving for what you hate about the dating world currently?

Like, tell us, tell me about that.

Jeff: I think a lot of, I mean, there’s not as much content these days compared to maybe 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, but there’s still a lot of content out there. That’s just sort of like, this is how you play the game. And this is how you like show up in order to like, convince somebody that you’re like high quality or high value or what, like that kind of bullshit.

Lily: I hate that. I know. Framing. Oh,

Jeff: it’s so gross. I don’t know why everyone, whenever somebody like. Whenever you see, like, this is how you can be a high quality man or a woman or partner or whatever, like, stop fucking listening. This feels gross. You’re all of a sudden a product. I don’t like this, you know? And now we’re judging people on if they’re high quality or not.

We’re all quality, sweetie. Like, [00:07:00] this is not,

Lily: right? Quality is, is what I think of at the meat counter. Like I want to pay more money for that. And that’s a, why a lot of people came to matchmakers when I was a professional matchmaker is this conversation about quality. And I want to attract high quality people.

And there are quote are no high quality people on dating apps. And it’s like, I don’t understand why we’re making this. Blanket assumption based on experiencing people that were wrong for you. Mm

Jeff: hmm. Yeah, exactly. You know,

Lily: so, so continue. It’s just, it’s just

Jeff: a bad match. It’s not that you’re high quality or low quality or whatever.

It’s just like, you don’t click whatever. So there was like a lot of advice out there. That’s sort of like, um, taking you away from who you are authentically. And I’ve always thought, and a lot of people out there think that like, You know, you’re at your most attractive when you’re just being authentically you and whatever way, whatever version that is.

And it’s [00:08:00] so true. Whoever I’m dating, if I’m seeing them and they’re doing their thing and they’re in their element, Oh my fucking God, it’s so hot. It’s so sexy. It’s so confident. Right. Um, so a lot of it was like, How you can, like, show up and be your authentic self. Um, a lot of it is like, similar to my content where I’m just like, you are, um, if you are sensitive, we love it.

You like that. This is like, this is how you can communicate your needs and your wants. And this is how you can, uh, be congruent with who you really are. And. Like the more you show up as yourself, the more you’re going to attract somebody, hopefully, who’s also going to be able to like, show up as their real selves, and then there’s gonna be, you know, a good match there.

And then this is how you kind of like, work on it. Uh, the first, the first part of the book is basically me being like, okay. Who can we blame for this? Right?

Lily: Yes. We, I wanted to bring this up. The parents of the, of it all. [00:09:00] Yes.

Jeff: Oh God. I love to blame the parents and the caregivers. And, but also it goes into like blaming society and capitalism and patriarchy and, and like Hollywood and TV shows and celebrity, like reality show, whatever, you know, like, Like, let’s go ahead and put the blame on where it really should be, like, where we’re getting these messages.

However, after, like, the first part, the, I kind of, like, pivot into, like, yes, we love to blame your parents, but, uh, you’re responsible now. Like, is a total bummer.

Jeff: It’s your responsibility to figure out, like, What messages you want to take in, what really resonates with you, what your core beliefs are, who you authentically are, what like healing or growth or evolving you need to do.

Um, so we can’t get caught up in blaming people forever, even though it’s super fun to do. Um, and eventually kind of like [00:10:00] turns into like, well, you know, somewhat of an unattractive quality. If you’re like, keep on pointing the blame at everybody and you’re not like taking of what you’re doing and how you’re contributing.

Lily: Yeah, I find it with a lot of clients that it, the external blame is really hiding the just vicious self blame that’s happening beneath the surface. And I wonder, you know, if your book addresses that the like the narrative, especially for people who consider themselves late bloomers or who have that label thrust upon them of like, It’s my fault or I’m somehow broken because fill in the blank.

Jeff: Yeah, no, that’s also like in the first part of the book too, is the, like, I’m not good enough because of X, Y, and Z. And these are, you know, typically messages that you’ve received out from outside of yourself that you start to internalize. And then we kind of try to like, take a look at like. Is this message, is this belief serving you, um, is this actually true?

Can you like express it? Is there a different [00:11:00] narrative here? Can we look at it differently? Um, so a lot of it too is just about like self compassion, um, how to accept yourself, how to embrace yourself, how to love yourself. Even if you can’t like accept yourself fully, it doesn’t mean that you can’t date, right?

But like, let’s go on this journey together and see if we can do this a little bit better. Yeah.

Lily: Yeah, Jeff, I want your opinion on so many things to get into it, specifically like the TikTok dating advice of it all, which can be very, um, not our accounts, of course, but I think it could never know. It could be like very much like, Put this advice in your pocket, such as if you wanted to, he would, you know, or like the, the sort of like, um, isms that I think are very popular because they’re very digestible and pocketable from a short form video, which I think can be veering into dangerous territory sometimes of, of the sort of extremes of if you wanted to, he would.

Okay, what, where’s the nuance [00:12:00] of actually here, but I want to know your opinion on the idea of. Feminine masculine energy and the idea of, like, when people over index on, oh, you’re not in your feminine enough and

Lily: blaming women for the dating troubles because they’re not being feminine enough. What are your thoughts

Jeff: that I do remember?

I don’t know if you’re old enough. But my so my mom is a therapist. Um, she’s been a marriage and family therapist for, uh, I don’t like over 40 years or something,

Jeff: I remember when I was a kid and she was reading that book. Men are from Mars and women are from Venus.

Lily: yeah,

Jeff: that must have been the 90s, but it feels kind of 80s, 80s or 90s.

Lily: Very much like why men love why men love bitches was like the next phase.

And

Jeff: there’s something like very, I think back then, and still now, and still we can like, see it with like these, you know, Instagram [00:13:00] advice videos. Um, there’s something that’s sort of satisfying about like categorizing. This is how men are, and this is how women are. And if you just know the rules, then all you have to do is follow it.

And you can like, This is how you should be feminine. This is how you should show your masculinity. It all feels like toxic masculinity to me when it comes down to it. Um, but there is like, you’re saying there’s like. These videos, including ours, probably because they have to, cause they’re short, they lack nuance.

Like there’s, there’s, there’s not a lot there sometimes. So if you give them these little, like, if they, uh, what is it? If they would, they could, what is it? If he wanted to,

Lily: he would.

Jeff: Yes. If he wanted to, he would like that sounds so simple and so easy and makes everything like makes everything really black and white.

And I think that there’s a lot of people. Me included us included that are like looking or craving like this black and white [00:14:00] instruction manual. If I just do X, Y, and Z, then I’ll get a B and C and then I’ll be happy. So I get where it’s coming from again, like we’re sort of saying though, it’s like way too simplistic, not nuanced enough and doesn’t take into consideration like the rainbow of like personalities and yada, yada.

So. Um, I, there’s, there’s also like, there’s, there’s this 1 creator that has a podcast. I, I’m not going to call her out, but I, cause I don’t even remember her name. She, she makes content about like, at the beginning of a relationship, you can’t act needy. You can’t tell the guy like, What you can’t be authentically yourself, you have to play hard to get if it seems like he’s pulling away, then you pull away doubly.

So right? Like, um, and then she’s like, and if anybody is telling you that you should like, speak up about how you’re feeling or [00:15:00] what you need at the beginning, then it’s probably a fine. Fucking therapist who has told you that and you should not believe them. Oh my God. So there’s like this fun, fun, I don’t know if it’s fun.

There’s like this interesting, like hate out there from like the other side of like, do not actually step into your authenticity and ask for what you want. And the problem is, is that like one of the main. Questions I get, um, from like, most of my followers is like, when is it okay for me to speak up about my needs?

And it’s always like, because it feels like it’s way too early, whether it’s like a month into dating someone or a year into dating. Somebody. Is that like something that you, is that a question that you got a lot?

Lily: All the time, all the time and it, it, it makes me feel, I feel sad when I hear those questions and I was there like I was in a toxic situation for way too long because I did not have the confidence or skills to [00:16:00] voice my needs.

So I fully like understand the bodily feeling. I remember that feeling at least, um, for myself of, I can’t say that because then they’re going to leave. But then I, I always for my clients and followers, I want to dig into as much nuance as possible in the format that we have available of like, what’s the assumption they’re making underneath the surface of that, which is that being myself isn’t okay.

And that it’s actually not possible for me to get what I want. And people will run away if I ask for my needs to be met, which is like, for me, it’s like, when did that first happen to you? And I’m not a therapist, but that’s the right, probably a pattern of this happening in your life. So I think that I hear in that question, a lack of emotional safety to voice the needs, which then signals to me like, okay, that’s a learnable skill.

Let’s figure it out. You know, yeah.

Jeff: The, the, the, the issue, though, like the feedback I get, like, I give that same similar [00:17:00] response.

Lily: Okay. Give it to me. What is the, what’s the pushback

Jeff: if we’re going to get like, just sort of like, you know, there’s no man out there. That’s going to be able to, like, um. Respond kindly or create a safe space for me or, um, be really interested in meeting those needs, you know, like they’re going to get so turned off.

I’m going to be so unattractive. Like, yes, sure. That sounds great. And that resonates with my soul, but like, it just won’t work because there’s no man. Who are these men that you’re speaking

Lily: men don’t exist too. And, and you’re like, hello, I’m here. Yeah. I’m not the only one. Yeah. Right. How could you be? We live on a planet of billions of people.

Like, how could you be the only, I mean, like, to that, I said, yeah, the whole, like, what I want doesn’t exist thing definitely comes up all the time. And my comment section is filled with that. And it’s, it’s very difficult for me to know how to respond. And it was, [00:18:00] especially when I first went viral and just the amount of sadness that I felt, the amount of boundaries that I did not yet have emotionally, Mm hmm.

Lily: And I wonder what your thoughts are on that. But just like reading these comments of like, yeah, but Lily, you don’t get it. I’m truly hopeless. And I truly have never been met by a man in my life who will. And, you know, my response. In in response might feel pithy or, you know, like cliche, but I just say, like, we, you haven’t met everyone.

How could, you know, if literally you haven’t met everyone and for, especially for high achieving people who are socialized as women, it’s like, you don’t know everything either. Mm hmm. You know, so let’s start there. What if you didn’t know everything and you hadn’t met everyone? What are what are your thoughts?

Jeff: You’re responding like, you know, compassionately and with practical like advice, like, let’s have some perspective here, right? Um, right. And if, but if that doesn’t nudge them [00:19:00] out of that place, and they still don’t believe it, Um, I might go to like, well, how is this belief serving you? What is it doing? Yeah.

Right. Cause it’s, it’s actually kind of protecting you. If you never believe that you’re going to meet somebody who’s going to be able to like emotionally be your equivalent, then you don’t have to try, you don’t have to believe you don’t have to hope you’re never going to be let down. Cause there’s a bunch of fucking assholes out there, right.

That are always going to be. Yeah. So, so that’s one thing is that like, yes, the, uh, You might be like protecting yourself this way. Um, another is that, like, uh, I might be like, it might be my fault. Like, there, like, there’s, I might be paying, I might be like, being like, you know, uh, Setting you up for like really high expectations.

Sure. Like there’s not going to be, there’s no, nobody is ever going to be like the perfect emotional support or perfect emotional match. Right. But there’s probably better than where you [00:20:00] are right now.

Lily: Yeah. Just a little bit. Yeah. So

Jeff: it might be like that. Maybe you’re not going to meet that person, that partner or that guy.

If we’re talking about guys, who’s going to be like, Uh, like incredibly emotionally intelligent, but you might meet somebody who’s like open and curious who wants to grow with you. Right? Yeah, for sure. Maybe it’s just about you two or you all trying to kind of like educate each other, train each other to be good emotional support systems in order to like, figure out how to be a good match and evolve together.

Um, so yeah, but there’s also like, and I want to like, validate their emotional experience. So like, that really has been your experience of dating people that have been total fucking letdowns. I understand it. And then it’s, it’s hard because like you and I, like you, like creators, like you and I are trying to be like, here’s, here’s some tools.

And also, um, hopefully those tools will give you a little bit of hope, [00:21:00] right?

Jeff: hopefully you won’t find yourself like repeating like old unhealthy patterns or, you know, with, and, and here’s some like awareness, like, if you do start to like repeat those old, old unhealthy patterns, like try to get away from those relationships or change them or speak up or something.

Um, and then keep on like getting out there, but that’s like, that’s a, that’s a, That’s a tough, that’s an emotional journey that you have to go through. And it’s, it’s really difficult. So I want to like validate the really difficult time that you’re going through as well.

Lily: For sure. And, and the whole, like our brains are designed to think that whatever moment we’re in emotionally is going to be that way forever.

You know, it’s like your brain is trained and built to believe that it’s going to be hopeless. It’s always going to be hopeless to keep you, like you’re saying to keep you safe, very normal. And I, I don’t know, this might. This is veering a bit off the path, but I in being on TikTok and sharing dating advice, I struggle between [00:22:00] nuance and hot takes.

And I think you do a beautiful job of Expressing nuanced opinions based in research or, you know, your, your, yours as a therapist, um, both and shooting straight.

Jeff: Yeah, that’s something that I’ve had to develop over time.

Lily: Say more on that. I’m selfishly gleaning.

Jeff: I made the mistake at the beginning and still kind of make this mistake.

Now, sometimes that I imagine that, like, if I make content and it doesn’t apply to you. You’re just going to scroll by. No,

Lily: Jeff. Why would you ever think that people wouldn’t try to apply every single piece of advice? And when it doesn’t fit, they would be mad at you.

Jeff: Or that like, if some of my content in the video applies and some doesn’t, then you’re going to be a critical thinker and figure out which one applies to you.

I’ll just say that’s not really the case [00:23:00] on mine. But I like came in with those assumptions, uh, that, and so like, if I wanted to have a hot take, or if I wanted to talk about something specific, I would, you’ll scroll by if you want, you’ll like really get to know me because you’ll see all of my videos.

But the thing, especially with Tik TOK is that like, you have to make a video assuming that like, this is the only video that anyone will ever see. About you. Like, no one looks like I have over a thousand videos on TikTok and Instagram, but I have to assume yeah, right. But you, but like, you will not see those.

You might only see one. So I have to, like, somehow be a straight shooter. Grab your attention within a second or two. Um, give some sort of like educational. Mental healthy kind of like content be a little funny, maybe, or be like, authentically myself kind of like, be a little vulnerable. There’s so many things that go into each piece [00:24:00] of content and I’ve, I get like, at the beginning, especially, I would get dragged, um, every now and then.

Um, I think that, like, some of my content back then, two and a half years ago, was like, half of it was about, like, this is how you can practice self care. Um, and some of, like, the dragging that I got when I was talking about self care is like, this feels very toxic individualism, like, the only person that Take care of yourself is yourself.

What about community? And I’m like, well, I talked about that in other videos too. Like you can rely on your partner, your family, your friends, your general community, but like, they’re not seeing all of those. They’re only seeing one video at a time. Um, so it’s been a journey and there’s also like, there’s only so much I can do when it comes to like managing my comment section, um, I have to keep an eye on it.

To check the vibe and to like, get good feedback, but also like, [00:25:00] um, I don’t have a lot of time to respond to each and every comment or to go back yesterday and the day before to see what those comment sections turned into. Um, so I just have to like, hope that my content is landing in the right way. Uh,

Jeff: But, it’s still a lot of like, hit and miss, but it’s, it’s more hitting usually because I’ve been doing this for a while now.

Lily: You’re excellent at it. Are you kidding? I, and I think that you and you’re giving, um, I think something that my, I think my audience really responds to that. I’ve been resistant to giving is, um, like, give me the thing. Give me the question to ask. Give me the give me the and now I’m, I’m trying to practice more of that.

Because before I, I think I was afraid of, you know, And this is getting a little inside baseball, I guess. But when I went viral the first time, it was like a dating apps or a scam video. And I was unpacking match group and, you know, the 2018 suit of, uh, match [00:26:00] group match. com for the fraudulent, the bots, you know, the FTC suing, you know, whatever you get inside baseball, dating, um, whatever.

And I got so much hate because there’s millions of views. And of course, with that, I just didn’t know what that came with. And I had been 800 followers and then it suddenly was. Not that anymore. And I was very viscerally, um, it, uh, it disrupted my nervous system. I couldn’t sleep. It was, it was just very intense and I can track when I give very direct.

Opinions very direct takes very not divisive, but very honest from my perspective, it’s like viral equal parts hate and love

Lily: and I can’t eat out on either of those. You know, I can’t I can’t I can’t indulge in either camp. Otherwise, I will not be a well human. Um, but I, I just wanted to share from my perspective watching you.

And obviously my account. Like much smaller than yours. [00:27:00] And you give such good questions that people need to be asking in the dating phase and the new relationship phase in the relationship phase, in the ending of a relationship at the beginning of a new, like you’re doing such a good job of just sharing my, my verbal.

Just praise of giving people tactical tools to be in the best relationship they can be romantically. Um, And I just wonder what your favorite, like, what’s one thing that you perceive that people aren’t asking enough of their new partners or in dating? I wonder what your.

Jeff: Yeah,

Lily: take is there. We went on a winding road with that one, Jeff.

Jeff: Hold on. Let’s remember that question because I’m about to forget it. I’ll put it in my pocket because I want to respond a little bit, uh, or, you know, please, I’m writing it on

Lily: a sticky note.

Jeff: Um, there’s, there’s in, so I like started posting on TikTok. Talk in [00:28:00] September of 21. And it was my fourth video that went viral.

Um, and yeah, the first three videos I took down because they were just like me having fun and trying to be funny. And then the fourth video was like, here’s some of the questions you can ask your therapist the next time you see them, you know, and that was like, all of a sudden that was like really trending, yada, yada, whatever, whatever.

And. From then until now, there’s been maybe 20 to 25 times where I was, like, I’m shutting this whole thing down. I, I, like, um, you know, a video would go viral. Like you’re saying, like, if a video goes viral. That means it gets out of your little community that’s watching you and loves you and understands you and does actually see all or most of your content.

And now it goes to, like, different parts of the Internet that you have no business being on that you don’t want to land on where there’s, but like, those [00:29:00] people are commenting. And so there’s been times where my video has gone to, like, um, lots of, like, right wing scary men, um,

Lily: nightmare.

Jeff: Yeah, uh, like lots of like, uh, or, or it’s going to like death threats where I’m getting like death threats from people or we’re like, it’s just like, look how fucking annoying and stupid his he is or what his voice or like, what he’s saying.

So, like, picking on what I look like, picking on what I’m saying, just like tearing me apart. And there was 1st year. Um, I was, I had a very unhealthy relationship. I still probably do. I don’t know if there’s a healthy relationship with like being a content creator, but I was like extra unhealthy because I was like, okay, now I’m seeing people talk shit about me and disagree with me and say mean things about me.

On all these different parts of the Internet, uh, and I want to know everything. Everyone is saying [00:30:00] there was just sort of like this

Lily: Jeff.

Jeff: No, no, it was like this morbid curiosity of like, okay, totally anonymous people that want to, like, say mean things. Tell me what it is. I’m so curious. Like this, it almost like it’s not a gift, but I was almost like, it’s just like, I get to know the real opinion of people, what people think about me.

And it’s not like I wasn’t like, not a ton of people were talking shit about me, but like enough, right? Where I can like go into those reddit community

Lily: more than a normal person who’s not on tick. Yes. And that, but it’s, isn’t that sort of like a morbid middle school? Oh my God. Yes. Yeah. Play that you’re acting out is like, what are they saying about me when I’m performing in the gym class during dance, during the dance performance, and they’re sitting in the bleachers and that, like,

Jeff: continue and, and yeah, I got to find out and it, it felt like.

Emotional self harm where then it became just like, I need to know. I need to know all the [00:31:00] bad things that they’re saying. And then I was like, I need to stop doing this. This is this feels this is making me feel bad. This is a real net negative. I’m not it was the 1st year. So I wasn’t making any money.

Off of it, which was like my goal, like, let’s just see how I can take this mentally, emotionally, spiritually, like, um, and then I, I, like, the time that I came the closest to shutting everything down was, I think it was maybe like 6 months in, and there was a podcast that I used to listen to, um, what’s it called?

It’s called like, is it a cult or something? Uh, these like two young women who are like really funny and interesting. And one of them was a writer who wrote about like cults and they did an episode on like Instagram therapists, the cult of Instagram therapists. And they talked about this other problematic Instagram psychologist and it’s very problematic.

And then they went to a commercial break and they came back and they played one of my [00:32:00] videos. And after they played one of my videos, there’s like, I don’t know why, but I Fucking hate this guy. He is so annoying. And you were just

Lily: listening to this podcast.

Jeff: I was listening to this podcast as a fan. Like I, I, I really like these women.

I really respect them. I’m sorry. People that like, I love and respect these other content careers are just like. So I was like, ah, I felt devastated and, and then I wrote them, I decided to like, send them a direct message and I was like, Hey, I’m a fan. I love your podcast. You played a video of mine. You’re just like, I don’t know.

I hate this guy. He’s super fucking annoying. And one of the, uh, Um, hosts, you know, wrote me back and they were like, Oh, my God, I am so sorry. I don’t know why I said people call us knowing all the time and it’s really painful. I shouldn’t have said that to you. That’s not okay. Um, and I really apologize.

And it was like a very genuine apology, but I was just like, I don’t know if I have the most,

Lily: I’m never forgiving them, Jeff. I’m never [00:33:00] forgiving them.

Jeff: Thank you. No, but that’s, uh, it sucks. So like, it’s. Well, I have like had so many opportunities, more opportunities that I could ever dream of make like becoming this content creator and going viral all the time

Lily: famous.

Just say, I’m becoming a celeb.

Jeff: I have never had to manage my mental health as much as I. Have had to these last two and a half years. And, you know, way back when, sorry, this is like really soapbox or whatever, but like way back when I always heard like content creators, you, you, you will never last more than three years.

Like three years is like, you’re ancient and, and there’s, and I was like, Oh my God, I’ll do this for the rest of my life. I have a plan now to get the fuck out. Like there’s like 2024 is like me trying to transition. Hopefully the book, uh, is the podcast and I can like focus [00:34:00] on like long form content with the podcast instead of like these little snippets.

I’m not going to like leave Instagram or TikTok, but I want to post less. You know what I mean?

Jeff: Even though it’s 99 percent of the, like, people like me and I get like amazing validation, do you know, okay, one more thing and then we can get back to your question. I’m sorry.

Lily: No, I, I hate my question.

So,

Jeff: you know, if you’re on tick tock, especially if you’re like going through somebody’s account and you’re looking at their videos, there’s a search bar. At the yes, right. And a lot of times there’s a suggested search.

Lily: Yes. It’s so shady and terrible. And, and, and

Jeff: yeah, most of the time it’s like, for mine, it’s like dating relationship advice, therapy, mental health.

It was like, great. This is very on trend with what I’m fucking talking about. But every now and then, like last week in the, in the search box, the suggested search was [00:35:00] Therapy, Jeff is terrible. And I was just like, that I just, I feel so horrible about that. I feel so like, am I terrible? And now I have this, now I have, now I have to figure out, like, do I click on that suggested search?

If I do that, then tick talk is like, well, I guess people want to know if therapy Jeff is terrible. Is there, are there videos out there with being like, this is why therapy Jeff is terrible. Where are they getting this? Is this in my comment section? Now I’m scanning. The hundreds of comments in this video, trying to see if anyone’s saying therapy, Jeff is terrible.

Uh, and I have, and now my day is ruined and now I’m like, weirdly obsessing about it. And of course I’m going to click it. So I click. Therapy Jeff is terrible and then I have to go through all the videos that like come up in the search results and nobody’s fucking saying that Therapy Jeff is terrible in any of these videos.

So it’s like TikTok, you are such a drama queen. You’re such a pot stir. Where are you getting this [00:36:00] from? Somebody’s probably putting it in there. I hate it. I hate it.

Lily: I’m yeah, no, it’s, it’s terrible. I mean, our bodies were not, our brains were not meant to do this. No,

Jeff: no, they weren’t. This feels salesy and I haven’t like made a video about this, but I’m like tempted to, but the, I’m just like, if you love a content creator.

Help them get off the fucking platform. Do whatever you can

Lily: join our email list by our book.

Jeff: Exactly.

Lily: Listen to Jeff’s podcast. You’re already listening to this podcast. Whatever

Jeff: it is, like they have a plan. To get off of there and you should support them on that journey and follow them wherever they go, because being on tick tock and be on, being on Instagram sucks because we’re playing, we’re like trying to please daddy algorithm, right?

Because we want our videos to go viral, but when [00:37:00] they do, we have to deal with like the weird backlash from like the different parts of the internet that it lands on. Um, and it’s a lot of work. To come up with content every day, or however much you, you know, like there’s, you’re really putting yourself out there and you’re being really vulnerable.

Uh, and you know, like we’re saying, it’s not a place to be nuanced. It’s not a place to have a long conversations. Podcasts feel like it’s like, this is like sort of one of the last places where like, it feels safe ish, at least like safer than all the other places. So buy your book. Buy my book, like, help me get off of these platforms.

Um,

Lily: yeah.

Jeff: Cause it’s, it’s, it’s hard.

Lily: Well, thank you for being vulnerable and sharing. And you know, I Joe, I join you. I have rules for myself now that I don’t watch stitches. I don’t want to do ads unless I know your name and know you personally in real life.

Lily: And because I had a stitch after I went viral of this woman screenshotting my, I had a mastermind open at that time.

It was [00:38:00] nine K with, which was six months of coaching every week in a group, in a small group with an in person retreat in New York city. And it was this like luxurious retreat. And she screenshotted my pricing, did a stitch with my video with the screenshot behind her and said like how much I’m a scam and how, you know, and that was like my worst case scenario as a business owner come to life.

And, uh, I built a lot of resilience and I have a lot more skills now. Um, and I do think that dating and being on TikTok as a, as a content creator, eerily similar in terms of like worst fears coming to life in terms of like being rejected or, you know, like, like having somebody. Tell you you’re not right for them.

Like, I think that that’s very intimate and tick tock is like also terrible in that way, but I’m, we’re receiving rejection all the time,

Jeff: loudly. Okay. I’m sorry. I went on a [00:39:00] total rant. It’s just, it’s just something that I’ve been thinking about. And like the problem, like, is if. If I’m in this space of like, I’m frustrated, it’s hard to be creative and then it’s hard to like, post content, you know,

Lily: hard to connect with the people who will resonate.

How are you still, you’re still seeing clients and you have a practice. How is that balancing? Supporting people 1 on 1 with the tick tock because the other day you made a tick tock about, like, if I’m making this face and you’re my patient or my client, like, you know, that we’ve landed on the thing.

What’s that like for you?

Jeff: Oh, that has been 1 of the most interesting parts of this whole thing, because, you know, like, I told you that, like, my 4th video went viral and I was not expecting that. And four of my clients saw that video without knowing that, like, I was even posting anything and how would they, because I hadn’t even seen them or why would I tell them I’m just like messing around.

Um, so there was like a journey that I had to go on with my clients of like, Hey, it’s weird that I’m popping up on your phone when you see me [00:40:00] like this, like, let’s process that that’s awkward. That’s you’re learning stuff about me. Maybe you’re seeing a different side of my personality because therapy, Jeff, Is somewhat of a character right that I play into, but I have fun with and Jeff Gunther, licensed professional counselor is not like therapy, Jeff.

So that’s like a real jarring experience. If you’re a client of mine, obviously, like, a ton of people were like, I want you to be my therapist, like, through tick tock and Instagram. And I’ve said no to every single one, because, like, for multiple reasons, I don’t have the space or the time or whatever, but like, It’s weird that we have a parasocial relationship, right?

Like the clients that I work with that I have worked with for the past 20 years, they had no idea who I was. They’re just like, here’s a therapist and I don’t even really care that much about his personal life or all these opinions that he has. Right. I can’t work through that. I don’t like that. We have a parasocial relationship all of a sudden, there’s something weirdly unethical about that.[00:41:00]

I just see my clients that I’ve seen for the past 20 years. They come in, they go away, they come back, I go away and they just sort of like recycle through whenever they want. I only see clients on Mondays and Tuesdays, maybe like eight or 10 clients a week, but those clients and me being like a real actual therapist is the most grounding thing I can do.

Otherwise I would. Fly away in this like Instagram, TikTok content creation world. And I wouldn’t have an anchor, you know what I mean?

Lily: Yeah. So I think the ground day, I agree the grounding in seeing clients. I mean, my clients actually find me through TikTok now, which is an interesting, especially if we have one on one application calls for one on one work as a coach.

Lily: It is a thing of like, they need to know that I’m a human being because of what TikTok is they. They think like, is this person a scam or is this person gonna, you know, and they do have this parasocial relationship with me and I’m over here like [00:42:00] been doing it for six years. It’s funny without the TikTok of it all.

So just building that trust as an therapist.

Jeff: I, you know, started dynamic. I went to grad school in 2003. I became a therapist in 2005. I’ve been doing this for a while and. And then I, like, started to become a content creator on accident and then on purpose. Um, but it’s funny because now I see some graduate students like going into, like, getting their therapy graduate degree to become a content creator, not to like just be a therapist, but they’re like, I want to get my degree and then create content.

And that’s what I’m going to do. And I’m just like, this is so weird. You, you need the like years of experience. I sound like such a, I hate those people. It’s just, Oh yeah, I know. Who need experience and whatever. Maybe, you know, I don’t know. Maybe you’re that great.

Lily: Well, it’s, it’s, it’s like the capitalism of it all.

Right. Cause I came from before I did matchmaking and then day coaching. I did, I was a nonprofit employee and the [00:43:00] idea of like caregiving as a profession.

Lily: And how much money you do or do not make from that pursuit. Usually not very much. I think that it’s like the conversation about how to make more money doing caregiving work.

And TikTok feels like an opportunity for some people.

Jeff: It’s so weird. I’m so interested to like, see where it all goes. I think TikTok is like, Trying to figure itself out right now. I don’t, I think the company is sort of struggling. I think that like, it’s trying to be YouTube, but it can’t because YouTube is already doing YouTube perfectly.

So there can’t be like long form content on Tik TOK. Which means that we just want our short form content on tick tock, but advertisers don’t like that because we can so easily swipe past an ad on tick tock. They want the, so tick tock is trying to figure out like how to get you to stay, how to get you to like watch the ad so that they can make the money, but they haven’t figured that out yet.

And, and so like, they try that with like tick tock [00:44:00] shop and everyone’s just like, get the Fuck out of here. Tick tock shop. What is going on with this?

Lily: Memory’s mad at tick tock shop, which look, I got a great deal on some skincare. I got a great deal on some skincare. I bought some do products skincare for 5.

Cause I got. 75 percent off or whatever, but, um, no, but I, I do think that, you know, what’s coming up for me and God, I could talk to you forever. Is this idea of cognitive overload, especially for folks whose feet is self care or personal development focused. That I’m just thinking about how, okay, how can folks make TikTok a place like your content is giving me very actionable strategies for journal on this.

Think about this, you know, ask this question, which takes thoughtfulness from the user. To implement to actually get results from, but fuck it. I’m not, I’m not going to remember because I’ve got, I’m 50 videos deep. So cognitive overload, especially as it comes to like personal development, especially if [00:45:00] you’re single and looking for, it can be just so overwhelming.

And so I wonder what, how we can help our biggest fans, biggest supporters, biggest community members who are in the, in the, in the, Community of our, of that world, how can we help them get better? Like, oh my God, but I’ll tell you what I think you should do. And sometimes I can do

Jeff: it every now and then.

Well, you know, understand that Tik TOK and Instagram and all the dating apps are like there to give you dopamine hits and the investors. The billionaire investors want to make billions of more money, right? So like tick tock wants you to stay on their hinge wants you to stay on their Instagram, Bumble, whatever, like, they just want you to keep on coming back and giving you their money or watching their ads.

And when I talk to my clients and they’re having an anxiety attack, I’m like, okay, let’s break down what [00:46:00] the brain is actually doing. Like, you don’t have access to all the parts of your brain anymore. You’ve lost access to your frontal lobe, the frontal cortex. That’s logical, sees all the different perspectives and thinks things through thoughtfully.

Like instead, like the lizard brain has got you, which is controlled by the limbic system inside of the amygdala. And it’s like, Danger fear, what are you going to do? Like, and you just, and you don’t even know it, but if you can like, take a step back and be like, Oh, this is what my brain is doing. This is what the agenda is.

Then I get to decide like what I want to do. Uh, should I like do breathing exercises? Does being hijacked by this emotional part of my brain serve me? Cause then I’ll like get the fuck out if I need to, if I’m unsafe. Um, and that’s sort of like, if, as long as you’re like, Oh, the first step is like being aware that these.

Tech bros are there to like, take your money and your attention and then to be really deliberate about the boundaries that you’re going to create. So be [00:47:00] very thoughtful about what you’re looking at. I think that a lot of us are just like, oh, my God, tick tock has the most amazing algorithm. I don’t think it does.

I think that we think it has an amazing algorithm. Because it’s so easy to swipe things away. Like, just the, like, we don’t even notice flicking our thumb and swiping it away. I will swipe away 10 things in less than 10 seconds and then watch a video and be like, Oh my God, that’s an algorithm. No. I’m swiping and I don’t even know it.

Right. So like be aware of the swipes, like understand what is your intention? Do you want to spend 10 minutes on this dating app? Do you want to spend 15 minutes on Tik TOK? How is it making you feel? Is this a net positive or a net negative? Are you. What’s the intention? Is it to like kill time and have fun?

Is it to like find somebody who’s a good match for you? Like be in contact with that intention. And once you stray, [00:48:00] stop, get the fuck out of there and do something else. Like. Go outside, play in the grass, talk to a friend, you know what I mean? So it really just like, don’t let the tech bros win. Try to be really intentional and deliberate.

Create boundaries, check in with, check in with yourself about what your intentions are, um, and be thoughtful about every like swipe that you make.

Lily: Great advice. And I think that the, this all also goes back to asking for what you want. In relationships because it’s you recognizing with the relationship with yourself.

What do I need? How is this making me feel in this micro moment? And the more you practice that boundary on a dating app specifically using dating apps is a great example. The more you practice the boundary of like, I’m not feeling good. I’m going to put it down for an hour. I’m not feeling good. I’m actually not going to go out with that person or I’m not feeling good.

Like I’m actually going to ask for what I need on this date. It’s that’s the kind of like, I think that small settling like a shitty feeling dating life or a shitty feeling online [00:49:00] life. It leads. I think I

Jeff: really love your so and I think most of the time I stop on your content and I think about what you’re saying and if, if something hits me in like an interesting way, I put my phone down and I fucking think about it or I go brush my teeth and I’m, and I’m like, you know, thoughtful about it, whatever.

I just like, I, in, You’re refreshing, you have like a different perspective, you’re good at making content, you’re engaging and sometimes I just, I, I watch it. I’m like, oh, that’s good. And I keep on swiping, but sometimes there’s something there for me and I don’t want to miss out on it. Right? And that’s what, like, your book does.

And like, it’s so much better to like, get those bits of information reading a book. Cause you can’t cause there’s not like all this other content that you’re swiping or something. I think that’s what my book does too. You can like sit down and cozy up. Um, yeah. So it’s so like, sometimes you go [00:50:00] online to like get information and when you’ve gotten it, leave online.

Thank you. Yeah.

Lily: There you go. There you go. I, I think that that’s an amazing piece of advice and I, I am so grateful for this conversation. It made me, I felt a lot of belonging in it and I hope that the listeners felt like they got to know you better, somebody who they might have just experienced in short form before.

Um, I really want people to listen to your podcast. It’s so good. Big dating energy everywhere you get your podcasts, Jeff, what is when people read big dating energy? Or listen to a couple of the podcast episodes. What do you hope they come away with? Like what’s how do you hope they feel? And and how do you hope they do?

Jeff: I just hope that they feel like they are good enough. Like who they are is good enough and is lovable. And that like. There’s nothing so wrong with them that they’re unlovable. Uh, there’s nothing so wrong with them that they need to [00:51:00] like, change who they are in order to play the game and do all that fucking bullshit.

They can be congruent with who they are. And as long as they’re like super authentic, they most likely will attract somebody who’s also really authentic and they can like leave. The book or the podcast feeling a lot more hopeful.

Lily: Awesome, Jeff. Well, please everyone go preorder big dating energy, the full title, big dating energy, how to create lasting love by tapping into your authentic self by Jeff Gunther by Jeff Gunther.

Thank you so much for coming on. This was such a delight.

Jeff: I know it’s so fun to talk to you and I hope that I can come on even more.

Lily: Come back, come back. Anytime we’ll, we’ll make it happen. Y’all, uh, go pre order Jeff’s book or listen to Jeff’s podcast. All of that info is in the description of this episode and I will talk to you next week.

[00:52:00] Bye.