Do you ever feel trapped by outdated dating rules and wonder if there’s a better way to attract more? The amazing Damona Hoffman joins Lily to dismantle the four big dating myths and introduces the four pillars of lasting love for healthier, more fulfilling relationships.  

Damona helps to outline these myths and paves a clear path with actionable next steps, making the dating process easier and helping you find what you desire. Damona says, “You have more control over what happens in your life than what you allow yourself to believe. How deep are you willing to dig?” 

Damona Hoffman is a regular contributor to The Drew Barrymore Show, NPR, and The Washington Post. She was also featured in Season 11 of The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. Damona has created content and collaborated with most major dating apps, including Bumble and Match, and she was named the Official U.S. Dating Coach of OkCupid in 2021. Her podcast, Dates & Mates, was named Best Podcast of the Year by The Black Podcasting Awards. Damona’s first book F the Fairy Tale, was released January 2, 2024.

We get into:

• Using dating apps with intention + why Damona says to take notifications off your dating apps and track what is going on in your dating life

• The three C’s when designing your profile: Color, Context, Character

• The four BIG dating myths and how to ditch them! Including the preferences list myth, the chemistry myth, the soulmate myth, tools over rules

Links:

F The Fairy Tale: Rewrite The Dating Myths and Live Your Own Love Story
Damona’s website
The Dates and Mates podcast
Damona on Instagram @damonahoffman
Damona’s Date Tracker

Show transcript:

[00:00:00] Lily: Hey, I’m Lily Womble, former top matchmaker and founder of Date Brazen. After setting up hundreds, I realized that with coaching, women could match themselves better than anyone else ever could. With my unconventional feminist approach, I’ve helped women around the world build courageous and self trust filled love lives.

[00:00:20] And now I’m here to support you. Get ready because I’m about to share the exact steps you need to attract a soul quenching partnership and feel amazing about yourself along the way. This is the Date Brazen Podcast. Hello, gorgeous friends. Welcome to another episode of the Date Brazen podcast. So glad that you’re here because we have a literal queen, a literal person of royalty, royal status here, who I have been a fan of personally and professionally for years.

[00:00:51] I would say Demona Hoffman is a regular contributor to the Drew Barrymore show. Ever heard of it and PR and the Washington Post. [00:01:00] She was also Featured in season 11 of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, juicy. DeMona has created content and collaborated with most major dating apps, including Bumble and Match.

[00:01:10] And she was named the official U. S. dating coach of OKCupid in 2021. Her podcast, Dates and Mates, was named best podcast of the year by Black, the Black Podcasting Awards. DeMona’s first book, F the Fairy Tale, was released January 2024 and is endorsed by Dr. Drew Pinsky, Drew Barrymore, Lori Gottlieb, and more.

[00:01:29] F the fairy tale. Rewrite the dating myths and live your own love story can be found at F the fairy tale book. com and Damona, we’re going to get into all of the things. So welcome.

[00:01:38] Damona: Thank you so much for having me, Lily.

[00:01:40] Lily: It’s so good to see you. And, and as somebody who’s had a parasocial relationship with you, watching you on all the things, seeing you crushing it on the Drew Barrymore show, seeing you with your podcast, Mike, in the gorgeous backgrounds that you have with dates and mates, Let’s get into it.

[00:01:57] I’m, I’m just ready to, I’m so excited to meet [00:02:00] you as in person as we get these days, hopefully in person in person. I love

[00:02:04] Damona: it. Yeah. Well, I’m glad to be here and to talk about F the fairy tale because this work is near and dear to my heart. No pun intended. I’ve been coaching singles for 17 years, actually.

[00:02:16] I know. I love it when people are like, Oh, I met my partner before online dating was even a thing. And I’m like, Uh, no, you didn’t actually. Cause I started writing dating profiles. More than 17 years ago. I met my husband 20 years ago. So, and it wasn’t even like that new at that point, but I have been coaching people through this entire evolution and I have really seen that we’re kind of at an inflection point.

[00:02:41] Things are changing in the dating landscape. And so I felt like this is the time now where. I need to write about what’s happening and capture this moment and give people some hope and also a road map to move from this place of confusion [00:03:00] into a little bit clarity.

[00:03:01] Lily: How do you perceive the dating landscape has changed recently?

[00:03:05] Like why? What feels specific about this moment? Because you’ve had such a breadth of experience. Like, what feels specific about now?

[00:03:11] Damona: I’m like, recently? Or when I started writing this book three months ago?

[00:03:16] Lily: LOL. LOL book writing.

[00:03:18] Damona: Well, and that’s how quickly it changes. Because, uh, technology changes very fast.

[00:03:24] But what’s really interesting is technology is changing faster than our Biology is changing, and that’s where the dissonance comes in. That’s where we realize we’re just not really wired for things like 10 concurrent Text messages, DMs matches on multiple platforms happening at the same time. Our brains aren’t wired for that.

[00:03:51] And so then we’re like, why do I feel anxious about dating all the time? Well, honey, you, you’re, you’re, first of all, you’re tolerating a tremendous amount of [00:04:00] uncertainty coming out of the pandemic and there’s financial insecurities. And. You know, to health insecurity and there’s housing and like all these things.

[00:04:10] So we’re just tolerating a lot of insecurity. We’re also tolerating a crushing amount of communication at this point. We’re also trying to still rebuild our lives from the pandemic, which high was like a huge global trauma that we all experienced. And we’re just like, okay, well, well, that’s over. We’re just gonna no, we, we have to, we have to really assess how that.

[00:04:37] Experience changes all and I’m glad to see that dating apps, which I’ve been bullish on since the beginning. I’m glad to see dating apps reached more people in the last four years. But now there’s almost this backlash rebellion against dating apps. Like I just saw that they used to be. They’ve laid off a bunch of people in at Bumble and dating [00:05:00] apps have been pretty rocky in the last year and more people are like, Oh, I want to do IRL dating and dating and events.

[00:05:10] But it’s like, it can’t be all or nothing. It has to be both. And

[00:05:16] Lily: I want to talk about before we get into the dating myths in your book and like, what do we, what do we like? What do we actually do? What in your, from your perspective, coaching for so long, like I want to give the folks your hottest takes. I also want to, before we get there, what is your thought on the match suit?

[00:05:32] Have you read about this match group suit? Six people have brought against match group. What are your thoughts on that?

[00:05:39] Damona: I think it’s kind of ridiculous.

[00:05:42] Lily: Okay. Say, say more, please. I want to know.

[00:05:45] Damona: Well, I, I just feel like we’re all really looking for Who’s to blame? We’re frustrated with dating and we’re like, whose fault is this?

[00:05:56] Whose fault is it? It’s, it’s my [00:06:00] family of origins fault. It’s uh, my friend’s fault. It’s my job’s fault because I’m too busy. You know what? Oh, actually it’s dating apps fault. You know what? They made me like addicted to this dating app because that’s what the, the suit alleges that dating apps have, Made the technology too addictive.

[00:06:22] And I, I don’t, I literally don’t, I, I’m like, I don’t, I can’t believe a lawyer took this case. Cause I’m like, I, I don’t, I’m not even sure what you’re alleging. Are you also suing Tik TOK? Are you also suing?

[00:06:35] Lily: Well, I think people are right. Like for making Tik TOK so addictive without, uh, consent at the top for kids specifically in kids brains, like that is happening,

[00:06:46] Damona: but that’s not the same as dating apps and like dating apps.

[00:06:49] It actually used to be accessible 13 and then I don’t know how many years ago they changed it to 18.

[00:06:55] Lily: That’s intense. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

[00:06:57] Damona: we won’t talk about that, but, [00:07:00] but we have to take personal responsibility. At some point. You are choosing to engage with this technology. And look, I get it, like, also, I’m a parent, my son is highly addicted to a game called Roblox.

[00:07:17] It’s a platform called Roblox. I’m sure many of your listeners, if they don’t have kids, are like, I have no idea what you’re talking about. If you talk to anyone who has kids between the ages of 4 and 14. They’re like,

[00:07:29] Lily: they’re into roadblocks.

[00:07:30] Damona: Oh God, help me because it is so addictive. It is. It is really a battle to get to like rewire his brain and get him off the app.

[00:07:41] Now Sue roadblocks because my son has, has an addiction to Roblox connection to Roblox. No, I’m not. I’m going to say, what can I do? To manage the situation in my, in my home better. It is time for us to [00:08:00] examine, like I did a dates and mates episode on dating hygiene a while, a while back. We need to examine how we are using the apps.

[00:08:09] What are we doing there, right? How

[00:08:11] Lily: are we, what boundaries are in place? How are you? Yeah. How are you even tracking

[00:08:17] Damona: what’s happening? How, how are you letting it permeate your, your bubble? Cause this is the other thing, like so much of life imitates art, imitates dating. We also in our professional lives have not had great technological boundaries.

[00:08:36] For example, when I used to work, I used to be a corporate media exec. I worked long hours, but if I didn’t have a shoot eight o’clock Friday, I know it’s kind of sad. It was like eight o’clock Friday, but eight o’clock Friday I was done because I was like, look, I’ve been working, you know, nine to seven, nine to eight all week.

[00:08:54] Yeah. If I don’t have something that is a crisis or a, uh, that I [00:09:00] have to tend to, it. I’m not on my email. I’m not on my phone over the weekend. That is my time to recharge. It’s my time to be with my husband. And yet now you can’t do that because you get constant messages. I do in my business. I get constant messages where people are like, In crisis, like I need an answer right now.

[00:09:21] It’s like, it’s business hours, business hours don’t exist anymore. What if we had business hours for dating? How would that change the way that we interact with the technology? What do you think about that?

[00:09:34] Lily: I think a lot, like totally co sign on the need for a plan. When you’re engaging with a dating app, because so many people are getting on and having the assumption of like, I should be able to just, it should be able to just happen.

[00:09:46] And I’m going to get on here and I’m going to just like my friend did, you know, my friend went on a couple of dates and then she met her person. So is there something wrong with me that so having a plan to engage with a dating app, because the dating app, I don’t, I don’t think is working in [00:10:00] people’s like people come to a dating app because they want to find love, but the dating app is there to make money for their shareholders.

[00:10:05] Right. So their best interest is to Keep you on the platform, not necessarily. I mean, I used to be a matchmaker before I was a dating coach, so I was on all of the dates for all of the dating apps professionally and paying for all the upgrades and doing all the things and getting reimbursed for them because I was finding like people for the database, right?

[00:10:23] But. Then when I transitioned into being a dating coach professionally and helping people navigate those resources, I really saw the need for folks to come in with eyes wide open. I mean, I think about the 2018 FTC suing match group suit for the fraudulent bots that they created to lure people into paid up upgrades.

[00:10:43] And so I, while I totally get the like. Take responsibility for yourself and what you need and what your brain needs and how you interact and what the business hours are going to be for you. I call it cozy swiping, like doing it only when you feel awake and like available and somewhat good about yourself [00:11:00] and then like put it down when you don’t.

[00:11:03] But then the other side of it for me is how are these Conglomerates like match group going to be held accountable to within the realm of capitalism, you know, to like this thing that is so tender as finding tender lol. So something so soft and important and squishy and precious as finding love. Like how what’s the both end there of like, you know, Yeah, you’re a business and you are a publicly traded company.

[00:11:29] And so like, yeah, what, what are we expecting from you both? And like, why are you putting every single fucking basic preference behind a paywall now? You know, like that is where I take some issue and feel aligned with the energy that is coming from the like in person dating revolution.

[00:11:48] Damona: I know what you’re saying.

[00:11:49] I will. And look like you said at the top, I’ve worked with a number of dating apps in the past behind the scenes. I D I don’t have a particular allegiance. I don’t [00:12:00] have a dog in this fight right now. My only dog in the fight is that I want people to be successful in finding love. Yeah. I feel like we, if I’m going to point fingers, I’m going to point them at Tinder.

[00:12:12] Yes. Tinder was the best and worst thing to happen to online dating as Tinder Reset our expectations. Oh, it’s free. It’s easy. It’s free. It’s easy to use. I can just create a profile, just pull stuff from my Facebook. Remember that just pull a couple of pics from my Facebook and the barrier for entry was so, so, so low.

[00:12:35] And then the. Profiles became super, super thin and it was like, there’s not really much here, but a few pictures, swipe, swipe, match. Let’s see what happens in the DMs. Forever changed the way people used dating apps. Prior to Tinder, you had to pay for everything. You had to pay to communicate. It was much better business model.

[00:12:58] And I feel [00:13:00] like it was up more upfront, but you got more, you got more information. You got more from it. And the barrier for entry was higher. So like, well, I had to go to Kinko’s not even FedEx Kinko’s. I had to go to Kinko’s and. Scan a physical photo onto a thumb drive, it’s all in F the fairy tale, then dial up to the internet.

[00:13:22] This is 20 years ago. That was how hard I had to work to make a match and how hard my husband had to work to make a match.

[00:13:29] Lily: Yeah. There was a higher. Yeah. He’s crafting his

[00:13:31] Damona: first message to me. Ain’t nobody spending two date. I know. Isn’t it cute? And he’s a, like chewing on his words. It was beautiful, but it will never happen again.

[00:13:43] You know, that’s just not, that’s not how it works anymore. So I can be nostalgic for the old time or I can meet it. I can meet us where we’re at. And we’re at a point where dating apps. Because they were chasing what Tinder and what [00:14:00] they thought everybody wanted, they reset our expectations. And now people are like, well, now I’m mad because I don’t want to pay for things because I, I thought it was free and it should be free to find love.

[00:14:13] But it’s like, no, it was always a business. It was always a business. I don’t necessarily think that because of the kind of business it is, that the standards should be different. I just feel like. We need to, to understand, like you said, the bots, that’s a whole different.

[00:14:35] Lily: I don’t do dating app partnerships for this reason.

[00:14:40] Um, it was just a personal choice after years of, you know, we’re again being a matchmaker on them all, not for the apps, but you know, obviously for the company that I work for, but I, I hear that. And I think that I, I do want to offer the both end of like, What about in person dating and the pandemic shifting?

[00:14:59] [00:15:00] Everybody’s like, there was no in person. I mean, some of my clients did in person dating with like pulling down a mask and like smiling at somebody during the height of the pandemic. But in person, it was really not an option. People weren’t meeting as much in person. And I think that social skills gap is high.

[00:15:15] Now,

[00:15:15] Damona: totally.

[00:15:17] Lily: And that whether you hate dating apps or love them, they can be an incredibly powerful resource to find love. A lot of my clients find love on dating apps, and I would say the majority, like a lot of them do. And so it is possible. And Demona, I hear you saying that too. It’s just like, How do we use them with more intention?

[00:15:36] And how do we relearn the social skills that it will take to meet somebody in person potentially as well?

[00:15:42] Damona: Yeah. And I, I really appreciate your perspective on this because even though I’m bullish on dating apps, you know, I started out by saying we, we have had a resurgence of. Speed dating in person events and it just can’t be an either or a, it has to be a both and [00:16:00] however, I say that with the caveat, if you know that dating apps don’t bring out the best in you and you have tried to do the things that you and I talk about with putting some structure and boundaries around your dating apps and it’s, it hasn’t worked for you.

[00:16:18] Um, with those boundaries, not just like I signed on for two weeks and I didn’t see anybody else. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get a lot of that, but you’ve actually listened to date brazen and you’ve actually implemented what you’ve learned. Then I say that might not be the best tool for you, but I always use it as a tool.

[00:16:40] It is never, by the way, it’s not like you’re not forming the relationship. It’s just a place to make the connection. So whether it’s in for whether it’s, it’s on the app, what you said is exactly right. We have to get to the in person communication and rebuild [00:17:00] the, that the social skills, the emotional intelligence, intelligence, the conversation skills, and we have to still put that human connection piece.

[00:17:11] First, because that’s what you’re all so hungry for.

[00:17:16] Lily: What? I, my, my listeners know what I say about dating apps. I want to know like what boundaries do you recommend? Like what, what hot takes on like how to use a dating app for your advantage? And then I want to move into the myth. Okay.

[00:17:30] Damona: Well. Cool. First of all, put a time clock around it.

[00:17:34] I, I, I love your philosophy of cozy swiping. I kind of,

[00:17:43] I look at it almost like, what else do you have a plan for in your life? Like working out or, you know, something like

[00:17:51] Lily: that. Seeing a therapist or like, you know, going to Flossing. Whatever. Acupuncture. [00:18:00] Flossing. Yes. Okay. So

[00:18:03] Damona: I’m going to tell it. I’m going to tell all your listeners a secret, Lily, 30 years of my life, I did not floss.

[00:18:12] I’m lying. It’s more like 35.

[00:18:17] Lily: Are you doing it now? Is that a thing? I’m doing it now. Your teeth look gorgeous. Thank you.

[00:18:24] Damona: It does help actually. It’s, it turns out it’s really helpful. I had to make a commitment that I was going to floss every day at a certain time every day before bed. You must floss and that became part of my routine and it was like some days where I’m like I don’t even want to floss.

[00:18:46] I don’t feel like it and then there are other days where I’m like I got something in my teeth. I cannot wait to floss but I know every night I’m gonna be flossing right and Dating using [00:19:00] dating apps. I kind of recommend the same thing. Like, you know, you’re just going to check it and put a boundary around it.

[00:19:06] Like I’m not going to be sitting here DM and these dudes until two in the morning. I’m going to spend 15 minutes a day on my app. I’m going to take off notifications because who needs them? Like notifications are the devil.

[00:19:21] Lily: Truly the devil’s brew is that notification. It penetrates

[00:19:26] Damona: that bubble again.

[00:19:28] Lily: There’s the penetrate word

[00:19:30] Damona: again.

[00:19:30] Lily: I love it. I

[00:19:31] Damona: know we, we like it in certain contexts, but we don’t like it. In, in our mental health, because when you’re in a certain state and then that, that notification comes through, it hijacks you. Suddenly you’re like off in the fantasy, you lose control over it. Also the, the, the great Nick vile once said on dates and mates, the most brilliant thing I’ve, I’ve held onto for such a long time.

[00:19:59] [00:20:00] He said that people don’t, don’t, Texts, don’t read texts in the tone that you sent them. They read them in the mental state that they’re in when they receive them.

[00:20:11] Lily: So true. So true. Oh my God. The Oracle text messages,

[00:20:17] Damona: I was like, it’s so true. It’s so true. So even if you get your bubble penetrated in that moment, you’re excited to respond.

[00:20:27] And you may not even be. Responding in the right state of mind versus if you wait until you. are in date mindset. And then we respond like you’re reacting if you’re just doing it in the moment and responding. So take notifications off.

[00:20:49] Lily: Also

[00:20:50] Damona: track what’s happening.

[00:20:51] Lily: How do you recommend people do that? Like

[00:20:53] Damona: literally girl, I have a date tracker, Damona Hoffman.

[00:20:55] com slash date tracker. So I developed [00:21:00] this after I used to write a column called date lab in the Washington Post. Um, very popular column. for many, many years. I, I came in the last four years of it and it’s like a matchmaking column where we match the people. Usually it was Washington Post writers. It was like not, and then they go on a date and then they tell you.

[00:21:22] Yeah. So they were like, we need somebody that actually has dating expertise who can also write to do this. When I started doing that, I told people all the time at the beginning of the day, just jot down some notes about what happened. Yes. How you’re feeling immediately when you get home. ’cause I need to capture that moment because I’m gonna have to write 800 to a thousand words about everything that happened.

[00:21:45] Everything you talked about, everything you ate. Yeah. And just trust me, you’re not gonna remember all those details. Yeah. And I swear to you like. Probably half the time, maybe even 60 [00:22:00] percent of the time I get on the phone with people the next day, the very next day, especially if they’ve been drinking.

[00:22:05] And I’m like, so what happened? You know, I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t remember what we talked about. I don’t know. What did I have? Oh, it’s like, you think I

[00:22:17] Lily: have to write a column about this tomorrow or today. And also

[00:22:22] Damona: you don’t even know what’s happening in your dating life. You can’t remember the details.

[00:22:28] How are you going to accurately assess, do I want to see this person again? Am I just going based on adrenaline when they text me and when I’m in that state and I’m already activated, you know, so you can do it more mindfully if you can really track what’s going on and see how you’re feeling when you get the dates.

[00:22:45] Also track what’s happening with your profile. When I have this. Primary photo, I get fewer messages or I get higher quality messages or messages and matches turn into actual dates. Like in [00:23:00] aligning with your goals.

[00:23:02] Lily: Yeah, absolutely. I love the, I, I to encourage like the date feedback system or like the date, you know, um, folks on Tik TOK called called there’s like the dating spreadsheet or whatever.

[00:23:13] Like, so where is yours? Date, uh, Demona Hoffman. com slash date

[00:23:16] Damona: tracker.

[00:23:17] Lily: I love how TikTok

[00:23:20] Damona: just, just invented everything. I’m like, you know, I’ve been doing this for 17 years, but

[00:23:25] Lily: look, yeah, it’s true. Truly, truly. Um, uh, and I also love that you encourage people to like, be thoughtful about what’s on your profile and how it’s leading to.

[00:23:38] Results. Um, one of my clients, um, who I spoke to for the podcast a couple weeks ago, um, decided, you know, to, to put on her profile, like only food pictures where she was in her joy and she did this like story. And she was just like, it, I encourage like, be your weird, be your most you self. And, and it led to her meeting like her [00:24:00] person because she allowed herself to.

[00:24:02] Show up more fully and more, you know, in her joy on her profile. So I, I think that it’s awesome to be tracking that too. Yeah,

[00:24:10] Damona: always. Um, I, I say you want to be your more, most authentic self. And I also like in, in at the fairy tale, I break down what I call the three Cs. Yeah. When you’re designing your profile color, context, character, color is strategic.

[00:24:30] See Lily, it’s not a mistake that I’m wearing a pink shirt right now and that you’re wearing pink lipstick. I’m sure. Okay. Here’s, here’s a big takeaway. Everybody write this down. Yeah. Rather than designing your profile from the point of view of yourself or your girlfriends, think about it from the person who’s going to be designing it.

[00:24:48] viewing it. So they’re seeing a sea of little black dresses and like, okay, pink lipstick. Oh, a pink shirt or pink wall behind, or it doesn’t, [00:25:00] uh, actually red scientifically give the receipts in the book. Red is, has been shown to be Perceived as more attractive colors. Like there was a study where they showed men pictures of all different women and they had to rate their attractiveness and then they changed the color of the border and they consistently rated the red color border as more attractive even though it was the same picture.

[00:25:32] Lily: So interesting. Did they do it with. Women and women like queer folks as well. Or is it with men? The same,

[00:25:39] Damona: the same result, they did not do it with queer daters and the results were not the same for women, but I still believe using color, not necessarily the color red, but you think color is strategic to stand out in the endless swipe.

[00:25:55] The context is just what you were saying. Telling your story through your photos. I’ve been [00:26:00] saying this from the beginning. It’s more important now than ever. That’s the one most people forget. And that’s the one, like you were saying, your client was in her joy. That’s showing your personality. That’s showing the quirky side, the weird side, the foodie side.

[00:26:13] The, like I had a client who was really into Comic Con, God bless her. So she had her like Comic Con stuff. Like any guy that’s into. I don’t know. Star something. Wars track gate track. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:27] Lily: Would be like, oh my God. I’m so, I’m so excited that I know. Yes. I put, um, when I was, I, um, met my husband about seven years ago now, but I put like Gilmore girls fan fest up on my profile.

[00:26:43] I was like putting it out there because I really wanted people to know that I was It’s an intense, passionate person, you know, um, uh, and it, it works. So I love all of those tips so much for dating apps specifically. Let’s move into, you know, [00:27:00] in your book, you talk about the, uh, old rules of dating no longer apply.

[00:27:05] We need to ditch the four big dating myths. What? Um, from your book are the four big dating myths and what do we do about them?

[00:27:11] Damona: Okay. So let’s start at the beginning. Cause I, I walk everyone through chronologically as, as I would when I have a new client and we start in, you know, I look at dating as this continuum when we are starting mindfully dating in a different way, we have to begin with our mindset.

[00:27:34] I asked myself, which belief systems seem to, to govern each phase of this dating process. And with the mindset, I was like, it’s always the list. People come to me and they’re like, okay, here’s my list. This is what I’m. Yeah, and I know as a matchmaker, you must have feelings as a former. Yeah. [00:28:00] Um, the list, it’s not that I’m saying a lot of times people, like when they first hear about the list Smith and F the fairy tale, they think that I mean, Don’t have any criteria.

[00:28:13] Like just like throw away the list. No, I’m not saying throw away the list. I’m saying let’s look at what’s on that list and see how that adds up to the ultimate story that you are trying to tell about your love life.

[00:28:26] Lily: Yes.

[00:28:27] Damona: And a lot of times I realized that the lift list was copied from your next door neighbor.

[00:28:32] Like what are you doing? You put it down as 6’3 Yeah, I’m gonna put it down as 6’3 You, uh, you want him to have an Ivy League education? Yeah, me too, me too. You know, it’s

[00:28:40] Lily: like, it’s not your life. Or your mom, your mom told you something at age 13 that then stuck in your brain, and you were like, oh, I guess I, I should want this.

[00:28:50] Damona: Yeah, and sometimes it’s totally subconscious. Like, Art, your mom told you something when you were 13, you completely forgot about it. Yet you then [00:29:00] aligned your actions from that point forward with that belief system that got seeded. And so then all of your actions and then all of the results confirmed what you believe to be true.

[00:29:12] And you never stopped to say. Wait, is that actually true for me right now? So that’s what I lead people to do in that first section of F the fairy tale. But then Lily, we get into the rules. Everybody, you brought up TikTok earlier, you know, everybody’s like, just Damona, just tell me, what’s the hack? Like fix it.

[00:29:36] How do I shortcut it? Get like,

[00:29:38] Lily: What’s the pocket advice? Like the tiny sentence that’s going to put in my pocket and I was going to fix everything.

[00:29:44] Damona: I prefer tools over rules. So I felt like we need to reexamine like it’s, it’s not just, it’s, it’s not just tick tock. It’s like, I look at the, the book, the rules and then the number that did on so many women and the, the [00:30:00] book, the game, and even the bachelor and any romcom or fairytale that was like, this is how the story goes.

[00:30:07] What if we flip that on its ear and we give ourselves the power to have the tools, but to be able to navigate it ourselves and know that everybody else’s rules don’t necessarily apply to us. But then we get to the date and that’s when the chemistry myth comes up. And again, people think I’m saying when I say chemistry is a myth, they think I’m saying you’re not supposed to be attracted to someone when you meet them.

[00:30:36] No, I’m just saying that like I, I knew from the instant I saw them, I think it keeps a lot of people from being able to see what’s in front of them.

[00:30:45] Lily: Absolutely agree. I think that I, I see it as folks like either over functioning. Meaning the rigid rules or the rigid expectations or the rigid checklist, which is what I had in my dating life before I had done my own work [00:31:00] that led to toxic situation ship after toxic situation ship while it was also matchmaking.

[00:31:05] So I know the rigidity doesn’t work. I also see the under functioning being like. Somebody nice with a job, you know, like, like wanting too little. And, uh, and I think what you’re saying is, and the chemistry piece, people can either under function and say like, Oh, I, I guess it’s fine. It’s fine. Let me give them another chance.

[00:31:26] And like 15 dates later, you’re like, I have no interest in this person, but I’ve invested this. I’ve sunk this much time. Maybe I should keep going. Or the over functioning, like, Oh, I didn’t feel the spark. So I’m never going to go out again. So I think that. What do you recommend to do to come in the middle?

[00:31:41] Damona: Stay present. That’s the only. Stay present because the anxiety comes up when we’re projecting to the future or ruminating on the past. So if you just be in this moment. Like, I’m not thinking about what I’m going to do after we finish this, this [00:32:00] conversation. I’m not thinking about what came before it.

[00:32:03] I’m just like really listening intently to what Lily is saying. I know we’re not on a date, but we could be, but that’s the kind of. Presence that you need to bring to every date, create the space and the container for the date to have that sort of energy. Okay. I will give a hot tip. I know I was like, no tick tock tips, but we go, all right.

[00:32:29] This game changer. I want to, I want to get your take on this, especially when you’re meeting somebody from a dating app or like. You essentially meeting a stranger. Cut that date shorter, one hour to 90 minutes. Huh? Period. Period. Have a plan afterwards

[00:32:47] Lily: to go

[00:32:48] Damona: to. That’s why I say be coming

[00:32:49] Lily: from somewhere and be going to somewhere.

[00:32:51] If it’s a blockbuster date, you can cancel the plan and trust yourself. I’ve had people go on, like, my first date with Chris was like three hours [00:33:00] and then we parted ways and then we got back together later that night because we were just like, Oh my God, we feel so excited to hang out and like, this is really cool, you know, but have a plan to get like, don’t over commit to that first date.

[00:33:12] Totally. And I

[00:33:12] Damona: will say I did. I broke a few of my quote rules or guidelines, your tool, my tool. I broke some tools. When I met my husband, but it was the having of the tools allowed me to sustain up to the point where I met him. And also to be able to see that this was a different kind of a connection. He thought first, don’t, we don’t want to burn out.

[00:33:37] It’s very easy, especially in swipeland. It’s very easy to burn out on dating. And We cannot be just chasing the chemistry. We want to be led by curiosity. All you need to know at the end of the first date is that you’re curious enough about them to see them for one more date. And then I have, I keep saying I don’t do rules.

[00:33:56] And then I have all these rules, three date rule. If you’re still curious, [00:34:00] keep going till the third date. And then, and then if you’re not like, Oh, I kind of want to kiss this person. It may be time to go separate ways. I did just get a message from a dates and mates listener who said that she gave it five dates and then something happened on five dates and she was like, I’m so glad I didn’t follow the chemistry myth and just toss them out after.

[00:34:23] Lily: Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That’s so interesting. And, and to that, I would say like, there was probably a reason in your body that you knew you wanted to go to five dates instead of like doing three or something. But like, I think that people. Aren’t giving their intuition enough credit in their dating lives.

[00:34:41] And I also think that a lot of people come to me and they’re like, I just don’t have a, I have a bad picker or like, I just, I don’t trust, I don’t have an intuition, I don’t have a gut pull. And you know, sometimes that might be true. Like, like sometimes you have no gut instinct, but usually it’s that you have a gut instinct and you do the opposite.

[00:34:59] Damona: [00:35:00] You push it down and you’re like, well, that can’t be right.

[00:35:02] Lily: Yeah, but then so when I was a matchmaker, I did these like date feedback sessions after every single date and talk to both people on the phone. And that’s where, you know, I came up with my date feedback system that I recommend people do after the date.

[00:35:14] So I love your date tracker. Um, but I would find that like 95 percent of my clients, if they were honest with themselves, could tell me what their date thought about the date. And could tell me, like, what was going to happen next, like, 90 percent of them, if they with like the permission giving, like, you get to listen to yourself, what do you think happened?

[00:35:35] And I would confirm with the person and whether it was like a yes or no, or maybe they knew and they could trust themselves, but they didn’t think that they could. So then it’s like, I think, like, tuning into giving yourself permission to actually know what’s going on.

[00:35:49] Damona: Do you know what I’m saying?

[00:35:50] Completely. I’m really big on intuition. I actually, I’ve started bringing in intuition training into my program. Some people like it, some people don’t. [00:36:00] But I think And is this Dating Accelerator? This is the Dating Accelerator. Uh, this is my Dating Accelerator Live and Dates and Mates method. So there’s a little bit of intuition in the Dating Accelerator Evergreen.

[00:36:10] But anyways, it’s, it’s, not everyone’s open to it, but everyone has it. Um, yeah. It’s just, I find that, and I’ve, I’ve trained in using intuition and I’m certified in that, like all these useless certifications, useful certifications that I can weave into, into all of the, the various facets of. Dating coaching because it’s, it’s a lot of things.

[00:36:42] It’s a lot of things and everybody comes to the table with different strengths and different things that they need to work on. But I find consistently that when you strengthen that intuition muscle, Not in date situations when you strengthen it going through the world and then you [00:37:00] can start to trust like, Oh, I was right about, you know, I’ll just, I’ll do like a little exercise where I’ll stand at the elevator bank and I’ll be like, okay, which elevator is going to open.

[00:37:12] And I’ll kind of feel into it and then stand in front of the elevator. The more that I do it, the more accurate it is. Like to the point where like my daughter will be like, how did you know? Wait, what? How did you know that that elevator is going to open? Yeah, because I, I think we get signals all the time and that’s just like a small example of how you can do it.

[00:37:34] But if you, if you do something like that to practice your intuition and then you can trust, like, Oh, when I get this feeling in my stomach. That is, that means yes, when I get this feeling, that means no, even if you can’t in the context of the words that they’re saying, you’re like, it sounds like it makes sense, but I, I’m feeling a no, [00:38:00] you can trust that because you’ve confirmed it in, in, in lower stakes situations.

[00:38:06] Yes. But then I get the questions. This is the fourth myth. I get the question of like, but how do you know, how do you know that this is the one because I’m looking for a soulmate, the soulmate myth crushes me about 70 percent of people say they believe in soulmates and I would love for them to believe in the idea that like you can.

[00:38:33] Be deeply matched with someone and spend the rest of your life with them. But I think what they’re actually meaning is that they believe that there is someone who is meant to be out there and that they’ve got to find that person and that when they find that person, they will know, and the bells will sound and the angels will come down from the heavens, the red carpet will be rolled out and it will be immediately obvious [00:39:00] that this is their soulmate.

[00:39:01] I don’t like it, Lily. I don’t like it. I don’t like it. Yeah. Why? It’s a story. It’s a fairy tale story that we have come to believe. And in my life and in the lives of most of my clients, it’s not immediately apparent. The person is their person until further down the line. I know we’re, we’re believers in slow love and, and taking our time to really Unfold what that connection is.

[00:39:33] This pursuit of the one, it makes you unable to tolerate any, any kind of conflict in a relationship because you’re like, well, My perfect person wouldn’t do this. So it both blocks people from getting into the relationships that they crave. And when they’re in the relationships, [00:40:00] it brings up a lot of doubt and questioning that prevents them from relaxing into the, the good.

[00:40:09] I like, I have, I have a mantra always like for myself, my daughter runs very anxious and I’m just like. Let it be good. Good. You know, we see good. And we’re like, is that boring? Is it supposed to feel this way? I don’t know. Am I supposed to be doing what am I supposed to do? We were so accustomed to doing that.

[00:40:27] It’s like, let me just relax into it. And if it’s good, just let it, let’s just let it be good. Let it be good.

[00:40:33] Lily: And trust that you’ll know if it needs, if you need to bless and release or if it will continue. How do you know though? I had a client who was in a new relationship. Felt good. There was something off, right?

[00:40:46] There was a preference that he just didn’t have an interest in something big and didn’t have a value that was big for her. It was good. She knew that she could have been with him for years, but not married him. [00:41:00] But what do you say in that situation to like, okay, yes, let it be good. And when do you know to bless and release it?

[00:41:06] Damona: Depends on what the thing is. Like I give, yeah, for sure, for sure. Three must haves and one deal breaker. Cause we can always look for deal breakers. So it’s like, is the deal breaker that they can’t, let’s say they don’t want to have kids. Is that the deal breaker or is it like they, they don’t play tennis.

[00:41:29] Sometimes we put the, the thing that is the deal breaker. It is not actually a deal breaker. So that’s why I only give one because I think we can always look for a red flag or a reason to say no. I want to give people more green lights and reasons to say yes, but that kind of comes back to the intuition that you were saying, like, you know, that it’s not, if you know, you know, and the challenges in trusting that and the really, the only [00:42:00] way that you can know is through time.

[00:42:03] And so through at the fairytale, I give all of the four myths, but I also give the, the antidote to all the four myths. And actually it’s funny, I just said the word trust because the fourth, the fourth pillar of long term compatibility is trust. Sometimes you can’t. Quantified trust, but you know it if you don’t have it,

[00:42:27] Lily: right?

[00:42:28] And it

[00:42:29] Damona: has to take time to build caveat. If you are an emotionally regulated and healthy person, you cannot trust someone, a stranger just off the bat.

[00:42:42] Lily: Right.

[00:42:43] Damona: It has to be, their actions have to match their words. You have to see it over time. You have to see how they work, walk through conflict and ups and downs with you.

[00:42:52] And then you’re like, ah, I feel safe and I trust this person. And that may be three months. That may be three years. [00:43:00] Yeah. But. Yeah, it can’t, it’s, it’s, it’s definitely not three dates. Mm hmm.

[00:43:08] Lily: Well, I, I love how you have outlined so clearly in this book and in your work, how people can untangle the myths that are really like keeping them that’s mud in their spokes from actually moving forward and then gives it like, you’re basically paving a very clear path for people with the next steps, um, the four pillars.

[00:43:33] Um, To, to feel more ease in this process and to find what they’re looking for. And I, I think that that’s so brilliant and I’m curious. Last question is how, what do you hope, what do you hope readers take away from the book? Like, obviously we hope they find love with your book. We hope they find the best relationship ever, which is totally going to happen.

[00:43:52] Y’all know, I believe it for you until you can believe it for yourself. And what do you hope they’re taking away from the book? What do you hope they feel after reading?

[00:43:59] Damona: Well, [00:44:00] Drew Barrymore calls it hope with a roadmap, and that was, that was all I ever hoped for. I, I just really wanted people to feel a sense of empowerment.

[00:44:12] Cause I was hearing a lot of this, you know, well, F the fairy tale, it’s out of my control. It’s out of my hands. It’s, you know, it’s probably not going to happen for me. And I see a lot of people giving up their power in dating, whether they’re giving it up to the dating app, whether they’re giving it up to the person that they’re with.

[00:44:32] Um, you know, their societal structures, like we have a whole other conversation about that. And I just want to snatch it back, snatch back your power because you have more control over what happens in your life than you allow yourself to believe. But the question is how, how deep are you willing to dig?

[00:44:55] And I won’t even call it work. Like I hate this relationships are work [00:45:00] like, no, it’s not. But relationships are raw. They are a real deep, deep dive in self discovery. And so the question is, how deep are you willing to go? Because I’ve been through that and I came out on the other side and I’m like, Oh, I didn’t even know that a relationship like the one I’m in was even possible.

[00:45:24] That was not modeled for me. I, it literally, it, it is a fairy tale. So I just want people to know that when I say F the fairy tale, I’m not saying you can’t have, If you can’t have a successful, fulfilling relationship, as, as you said, I want, that is what I most want for people to have read this book to, to feel and experience.

[00:45:48] But I also want people to be willing to do that self study and that, that self exploration to [00:46:00] build it themselves in a way that aligns with their goals and their values and makes them feel.

[00:46:08] Lily: Beautiful. Well, Damona, I can’t wait for people to read your book and get their hot hands on your book. It’s at F the fairy tale book.

[00:46:16] com and everywhere books are sold. There it is. Gorgeous. Um, where can people find you and work with you beyond your book?

[00:46:24] Damona: Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Damona Hoffman. I do the dates and mates podcast every Tuesday, like clockwork for 11 season slash. Meaning years. And I know, I know. And, um, yeah, Damona Hoffman.

[00:46:41] com. We have the, the free date tracker. There’s so much else there in, in self study programs, like the dating accelerator that we talked about, workshops and all kinds of other goodies for you there.

[00:46:53] Lily: Absolutely. I’m so glad you were here. We’re going to link all of that in the description of this episode.

[00:46:57] You can also go to the show notes, uh, Damona, thank you so [00:47:00] much.

[00:47:00] Damona: Thank you, Lily.

[00:47:01] Lily: Talk to y’all next week.