Today, get ready to geek out with us on the podcast! We’re thrilled to have Faith Hill, a staff writer at The Atlantic, joining Lily for an insightful conversation about research and its cultural impact on dating. We get into topics like dating dynamics, dating yourself, social connections, and being single. 

Together, Lily and Faith dive into Faith’s latest articles about exploring love, dating, and the complexities of singlehood. What’s particularly captivating about Faith’s writing is how she addresses those burning questions that naturally arise as you delve into the research she shares. 

Tune in for a chat that sheds light on the intriguing intersection where love, society, and human connections meet! ️✨

We get into:

• Dating culture and its problematic value of coupled people over singles 

• What the research showed regarding dating “spark vs. slow burn.” 

• The assumption that we’ll be happier in a relationship

• The emotions that get stirred up when examining this statement, “As your friends get coupled, it could feel like a ghost town.”

• Hot-take: “Spending all your time with your partner is not great for your relationship or friendships.”

• Allowing for messy intimacy with friendships or partners 

• Perception and feelings about solo dating: how to release the narrative that taking yourself on a date means you are lonely, and how to bring more pleasure to solo time

• Hot-take: “Solitude is not antithetical to connection.”

Links:
Pre-order Lily’s upcoming book, Thank You, More Please!
130. How to find and create “exhale” friendships with Blake Blankenbecler
173. Fighting for our friendships with Danielle Bayard Jackson

Faith’s articles referenced in this episode:

No, You Shouldn’t ‘Date ’Em ’Til You Hate ’Em’
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2023/11/awkward-modern-dating-the-spark/676039/

Don’t let love take over your life
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2023/09/relationship-balance-love-friendship-autonomy/675321/

Take yourself on a date! 
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2022/12/seeing-movies-alone-solo-date-in-public/672363/

Show transcript:

[00:00:00] Lily: Hey, I’m Lily Womble, former top matchmaker and founder of Date Brazen. After setting up hundreds, I realized that with coaching, women could match themselves better than anyone else ever could. With my unconventional feminist approach, I’ve helped women around the world build courageous and self trust filled love lives.

[00:00:20] And now I’m here to support you. Get ready because I’m about to show you the exact steps you need to attract a soul quenching partnership and feel amazing about yourself along the way. This is the Date Brazen podcast. Hello, gorgeous friends. Welcome to another episode of the Date Brazen podcast. Today, do I have a treat for you because I have this incredible, brilliant human named Faith Hill on the podcast.

[00:00:47] Faith is a staff writer at the Atlantic, just repeating. At the Atlantic. Yes, we have an intellectual amongst us and and also a journalist. She [00:01:00] covers dating, social connection and family dynamics among other subjects. And Faith and I met at the Tamron Hall show a couple of weeks back at this point.

[00:01:10] And I just was so excited to have you on the podcast. Welcome Faith. Hello.

[00:01:15] Faith: Thank you so much for having me, Lily. I appreciate

[00:01:17] Lily: it. I have a lot of questions. I’ve like deep dove into several of your most recent articles about dating, but I want to first start with this sentiment that you shared ahead of our interview, which I’m going to read it and then we can dive in.

[00:01:31] I think too often romance isn’t taken seriously as a journalistic subject, but even beyond being relevant to so many people, it’s a rich area for psychological dynamics, philosophical musings, and funny, humic human anecdotes. And that’s, I think the intention of this podcast is like, we take dating seriously as a microcosm of wellbeing.

[00:01:51] And so that’s what really drew me to your take. I’m just curious about what led you to that conclusion and how you got. [00:02:00] The dating beat at the Atlantic. What was that like?

[00:02:04] Faith: Yeah. No, I’m so happy you take it seriously too. And or, in the space, I think it, there is so much there. And I, yeah, I think being a magazine like the Atlantic, there’s so many really like serious heavy topics covered that people like, know instinctively that they.

[00:02:21] Are worthy of their attention and I think for a long time. I didn’t really feel like great about talking about dating as one of those subjects. It just seems especially being like one of the. Younger people who works here, like it feels this sort of like early sort of silly topic compared to a lot of the other things we cover.

[00:02:41] It can be, light or silly or, all of that. But I also think it’s both important and intellectually really rich and interesting. Gosh whether Or not you are in a relationship romantically or what your situation is I think, people connect to these topics that they like, no, a lot [00:03:00] of people just know what it’s like to have a crush on someone or to be like have these relationship power dynamics or it is, it’s like stuff that just comes up in a lot of people’s lives and we don’t always talk about it.

[00:03:12] Yeah. In a way that is really like earnestly engaging with that

[00:03:16] Lily: for sure. And I do think there’s a it’s the dismissiveness of the conversation about dating as frivolous. Just like full stop feels entrenched in this. I want to get into this. I don’t, and I don’t have words for what I want to say.

[00:03:31] I know my heart, but I don’t know my words as Matt Rogers says from Las Culturistas, but and you have words for all of this. So I would love your take, but this idea of like single women specifically, or people socialized as women being treated as like behind or silly because they don’t have a relationship yet and they want one.

[00:03:51] And that’s that Oh, poor you vibe. But is also deeply patronizing towards not only a human desire, but also a societal [00:04:00] structure that literally values coupled people ahead of single people. And I wonder what your thoughts are on that.

[00:04:07] Faith: Yeah, I think that’s so true. And I think I, I grapple with that in my work because I feel sometimes like I’m like writing about relationships and yet I say in a lot of my pieces that I’m like a single woman myself. It’s something I’m pretty open about. That being my perspective and something I’m dealing with. And sometimes I feel like, who am I to be talking about relationship? Like, why am I the person who’s writing about this? I almost feel like I am, I’m missing some kind of Expertise that people would make people like, take me more seriously is a source on this.

[00:04:40] Lily: What expertise do you think you like quote should have? Tell me about

[00:04:45] Faith: that. Someone who’s not a parent writing about parenting, for example, feel like sometimes what if. I don’t know enough about relationships, like not having that experience myself, even though of course, in reality, like [00:05:00] I’m doing all of this research, I’m talking to these expert sources and I also, I’m out here having like different types of experiences and relationships trying and that’s its own form of expertise rather than just like sitting at home with a partner, like watching Netflix and not like thinking that much about these dynamics.

[00:05:17] Thanks.

[00:05:18] Lily: For sure. And, I don’t know if you’ve deep dove into any of my not even deep dove, but just if you look at any of my stuff, I hope that you feel that my perspective is that single people are just as much of experts on relationships than anybody else, like than any coupled person, just because I think obviously the dynamics of How to be married for 15 years may be different than, if you were writing about, like, how do you stay married for?

[00:05:47] I have no idea. I just got married last year but I digress. The idea that couple people have some stake in the ground in terms of understanding of how human relationships and the [00:06:00] beginning of human romantic relationships should work, I think is actually. Really problematic because a lot of couple people then go into saying to single people like, Oh, you should do it.

[00:06:11] Like I did it when everyone is so individual and everybody’s beginning of their love story. So individual. So I think you as a single human dating is come. You’re coming from such a uniquely qualified angle to talk about these subjects in a more nuanced

[00:06:28] Faith: way. Yeah, I hope so. And I, I

[00:06:32] Lily: hope you Claim it, Faith!

[00:06:33] Yeah. Thank you.

[00:06:34] Faith: Yes, I accept that. I accept that. And I think I want to always be coming at this subject with a spirit of generosity and compassion. And I think sometimes, for instance, in the Sort of dating advice space, so there’s a lot of content. That’s like telling people what they’re doing wrong and dating and and sometimes it’s really, helpful stuff.

[00:06:57] And then other times it can feel [00:07:00] like, like not acknowledging that there’s also like luck involved. So I’m hoping I can it makes some single readers feel like I see them and I don’t think they’re just doing it wrong.

[00:07:10] Lily: First of all, how did you come to work at the Atlantic?

[00:07:14] How did you become a journalist? I want to take a step back into your past for a second. I

[00:07:19] Faith: didn’t always know I wanted to be journalist. I majored in cognitive science in college. So I was like, I sometimes joke with people that I’m like, Oh, Woman in STEM, even though it’s like really not very hard sciency, but I did I really liked the sort of like psychological research.

[00:07:36] And I thought that I would be doing that research myself. Like I imagine getting a PhD and, probably exploring some of the topics that I write about now. I realized at a certain point that like, I didn’t really want to be doing the Controlled study design. It’s like I wanted to be talking to people and writing about it and sharing it That was a different way to come at the same material and the same dynamics and like human [00:08:00] relationships Which i’ve always been interested

[00:08:01] Lily: in how did you come to the atlantic?

[00:08:04] Faith: So I started and we have a year long fellowship program essentially like an internship which no longer exists actually I’ve been here for five years and I think I started in that year long program and then I was you can’t make me leave. I’m gonna handcuff myself to my desk.

[00:08:20] I was determined to stay after that. And I’ve kind of, bopped around between different departments. I feel really happy now to be, I write for our family section which is really just about these Human relationships, it’s very broad, but it’s yeah, the kind of thing I love just like thinking about how people connect and interact.

[00:08:38] Do you

[00:08:39] Lily: remember the, as you referenced the experience of being a single woman yourself and also dating and also writing for the Atlantic at the same time? It’s an interesting intersection. And, you mentioned the potentially like. Frivolous label that is placed on that subject. I’m curious.

[00:08:58] Was it a struggle? Like for [00:09:00] you internally, was it nerve wracking to first write a piece about dating and expose yourself in your truth in that piece? Or was there pushback from colleagues or editors on the subject? Cause they’re like, I don’t know if that’s good and that’s hard enough. What was that like?

[00:09:19] Faith: Yeah, I think I actually have not gotten. Real pushback from my colleagues, like they have actually been very supportive and interested in this which I am grateful for. I think it was like internalized stuff that was making me like, at first I didn’t mean to have a beat in this area.

[00:09:34] I I think one of the first stories I wrote in this area was about like couples who get back together after having broken up, how they try to make it work differently this time and address what went wrong before. And that I just like thought was interesting, totally in and of itself.

[00:09:53] And I asked my boss about writing it and she was into it. I think it was actually like spurred by JLo and Ben [00:10:00] Affleck. I was gonna

[00:10:01] Lily: say, yeah, a huge topic in that realm a couple years

[00:10:05] Faith: ago. Huge. And I was like, wait, that’s actually really psychologically fascinating. What? How are they talking about this?

[00:10:12] What is different this time if they already broke up?

[00:10:14] Lily: What did you find? What did, what do you remember from that piece? What stands out to you as an aha moment?

[00:10:20] Faith: I had a great time in that piece, like talking to some of these couples that got back together. And it was so sweet.

[00:10:27] They were really like, I think the thing is that if you get back together after having broken up, like you have to be really intentional, so they had these really elaborate systems for like how they would talk through what had gone wrong before. And then once they had. Analyze that and I did they both agreed on what the issues were they had like plans for you know Setting it right in the future and some of them had like regular meetings to touch base on these things some of them like journaled together So sweet, it’s so sweet.

[00:10:59] And it [00:11:00] almost it sounds like both cheesy and also like In a way unromantic because it’s it was really like logistical they’re like, yeah, okay, we it’s not always just going to be magical the time like we’ve realized like, okay, we have the spark. They had it in the beginning too.

[00:11:16] And the spark was enough to like, make them draw them back together. But then on top of that, they also had to You know, they realized they just, they had both they had a connection that was powerful enough that they didn’t want to be with other people, but they also, that is not always enough.

[00:11:34] There’s also like timing, like some of them were like, had realized the timing was not right when they first got together. And I think sometimes. When couples break up and they say the timing wasn’t right, we don’t really believe that. I think it’s a little bit seems like an excuse.

[00:11:48] Reporting that story really made me like, Oh, it really can be the wrong time. And the time might be

[00:11:53] Lily: right later. What I love is that you are doing such A deep dive into the research on these [00:12:00] topics, speaking of the spark, let’s just get into it to the date until you don’t date him till you hate him article, which is how you know, you wrote this article.

[00:12:08] Don’t date him till you hate him. November 2023. It published and Tamron Hall. This is what the producers told me. Tamron Hall was reading The Atlantic. Read. Don’t date them till you hate them. Your article inspired this whole episode about Spark vs. Slow Burn. Tell us about the research. Tell us about the research.

[00:12:30] Let’s get into it. What’s the research that shows that time and familiarity Is helpful with the slow burn concept,

[00:12:37] Faith: yeah. So we talked about this term on the show, which I was, I thought it was funny that Cameron used this, but there’s this like rule of propinquity, which is like essentially that we tend to like people more, the more frequently we interact with them.

[00:12:52] And that’s not just in romantic relationships, in, in platonic ones too. It’s we. If someone becomes more of a part of our [00:13:00] life unless there’s really some reason we don’t like them they just seem less random to us. And you start to feel more close. And so I, I definitely think that can happen if you’re going on a lot of dates also, as you said, which is a little less romantic, but is real, like the sunk cost fallacy is definitely, a thing where if you’ve spent a lot of time and even money on dates, like you start Putting effort in and wanting it to work.

[00:13:23] You’re really motivated. See if this was something that was worth it. And then there’s also, research that suggests that the more time you have to get to know someone, the less you are judging them based on things like attractiveness or like sort of superficial qualities like personality traits.

[00:13:39] And there’s one researcher who had his students like privately rate each other’s attractiveness, which for me is scary. So scary.

[00:13:50] Lily: So upsetting. It’s I don’t know if you remember this show in the early 2000s called hot or not. Do you [00:14:00] remember this? And women would stand on stage, men would stand on stage, it was and watching it as a young person and watching these people, so it just takes me back to this TV show where people would stand on stage and then the audience would be like hot or not and vote and then the people who are hot would move on.

[00:14:15] Very sad. Okay, continue, please

[00:14:18] Faith: such a nightmare in my nightmares. I end up on that show or in the study, but it was interesting because at first the students like largely agreed on who in the class was attractive. But after more time, their judgment started to really vary. So like people just developed their own unique relationships to each other.

[00:14:40] You start to have a sense of someone that’s specific to your connection rather than just

[00:14:44] Lily: like thought or not. I’m curious about the, opposing quote unquote side of the spark being a viable. Thing, is to tell me about your examination of that [00:15:00] concept. I would love to hear more.

[00:15:01] Yeah.

[00:15:02] Faith: I think you said this on the Tamron Hall show, which I really appreciated, but part of it is just that you have limited time and it really It’s just so exhausting and can be demoralizing to be told that you need to be like trying again and again with people who aren’t, very exciting to you.

[00:15:19] And I think one of the mistakes I think is like in assuming that everyone is expecting this instant spark, forgetting about people if they’re not immediately so hot or charming, because I think actually a lot of people are really motivated to. Find for it to work out, because of that, I think we already tend to overlook ways in which we’re incompatible or it’s not that great.

[00:15:41] And I worry about like people getting advice all the time to ignore that, ignore concerns and just try it again, first of all, because you can really get into. A relationship that’s not good for you, and it gets harder and harder to end that relationship the longer you’re in. So I think one researcher said, [00:16:00] I’m, I believe that this is good advice to get into a relationship.

[00:16:04] I’m not convinced it’s good advice to get in a good relationship. And then I also just think like it’s taking time out of your life to go on all these dates, and you do lose time doing other things and being with other people. I think I don’t want to lose the part of that’s other parts of our life also deserve our time and care and there are trade offs.

[00:16:23] Lily: I get conspiratorial about, not, hope that doesn’t scare you with this conversation, but when I think about the immense, what advice is status quo advice? In terms of dating in terms of what advice specifically women are people socialized as women are given. It’s generally give them another chance.

[00:16:43] And as you’re saying, I think that, like the law of propinquity and yes, attraction can grow and feelings can grow both. And whenever I’m, I’m deeply critical of any advice that feels like the blanket status quo wisdom, especially because those conventional [00:17:00] dating norms, I think, are generally stuck in a patriarchal status quo that exists where single women are treated as behind or less than a couple of women.

[00:17:08] And this idea also economically of our gov, of this is where I get conspiratorial, like top down. Yeah. It’s in our government’s best interest for. People to make babies and that’s why we get tax breaks for being married and tax breaks for having children and families. And so I’m really deeply critical of any advice that has women doubting themselves or trying to settle for a relationship to somehow both establish themselves as valuable to society, right?

[00:17:39] And also to to settle to the point of Okay. Not listening to themselves. I hope that made sense, but I just like I’m so critical of this concept of I just want everybody to be married or I just want everybody to because it’s not. We live in 2024. Yeah. I’m like, where is the space for it’s [00:18:00] okay.

[00:18:00] If you’re single just want what you want. And Yes. And figure out how to find the best person for you instead of defaulting to, Oh, I never know. Let me go. You never know. Let me just keep trying and exhaust myself. Do you have any thoughts on my thoughts just now? Oh, yeah.

[00:18:18] Many thoughts.

[00:18:19] Faith: No, I totally I’m with you. And I think it’s tricky because like on the one hand, you want to, acknowledge that a lot of people. Do actively want to be in relationships and they’re looking for advice that will help them get there. On the other hand, it’s feels like so much dating advice as you’re saying is geared toward just like getting in a relationship and not acknowledging there are other parts of your life going on.

[00:18:42] Lily: And we’re getting into the right relationship, right? Getting into a it’s oh you’ll get into it and you’ll see we’ll see if it works out versus how can you be intentional and be trusting your own preferences and desires instead of defaulting to a blanket piece of dating advice [00:19:00] that feels exhausting and right and doesn’t fit.

[00:19:03] That’s what I mean. And.

[00:19:04] Faith: Yeah, completely. And yeah, I think there’s such fear of being single. If you’re not afraid of being single, then you can look for a relationship that’s actually worth it because you’re not scrambling to just find a relationship. In general, those things are really connected.

[00:19:20] Like you have to be happy enough with your life outside of romance to yeah, look for romance. That’s like actually really good because that’s not necessarily just gonna pop

[00:19:29] Lily: up. And to be clear, y’all listeners know if you want a relationship, I want you to have what you want. Let’s figure it out together.

[00:19:37] Let’s let’s help you get into the best relationship of your life both. And I you are leading me. Yeah. So Faith, it’s like you saw my notes before this conversation how you’re just killing it in reading my mind because the next topic I wanted to talk about is from your article entitled, don’t let love take over your life.

[00:19:59] And [00:20:00] I pulled out a specific quote that you had this idea of. I’ll be happier when I’m in a romantic relationship versus when I’m single. And I think acknowledging the both end of yeah, you get to want a relationship, both ends your quote, the assumption, there’s an assumption that will be happier in relationships.

[00:20:22] And this is the next part. And some research suggests that shared time, at least up to a certain point, can make partners happier, though the strength of that link is up for debate. What is up for debate about the strength of the argument that yeah, time with a romantic partner makes you happier versus.

[00:20:39] Yeah. Actually, that’s not fact, that’s not backed in science or tell me about that.

[00:20:44] Faith: Yeah. I think it’s once again, like time is limited and it’s what are you cutting out? I think You know, most researchers would probably agree that every couple needs some quality time together.

[00:20:54] Of course. Yeah. And, but there is like a mixed findings on like how [00:21:00] much time and what happened needs to happen in that time for it to be positive for a couple. Like they’re, what activity are you doing? And if you’re doing an activity that was only one of the partner’s ideas does that sort of cancel it out?

[00:21:14] So it’s it’s a complicated area. And I think it, it seems sure that it’s not like. More and more time is better and better.

[00:21:22] Lily: And I think this idea, I can speak to this being in a relationship that was terrible for my needs. And once simply being in a relationship did not make me happier.

[00:21:35] And I think that a lot of couple people might be looking at that. Who maybe are questioning whether or not they’re with the right partner, unfortunately is this time with this other human that I’ve chosen to live with or be with or whatever? Is it actually enriching my life like I was taught as a child?

[00:21:54] A romantic relationship would fill a gap in my life, right? Especially being [00:22:00] I’m from the deep south. So that narrative of romantic relationship is it? With assistant or man, like that’s what you need to strive for in this life. And a lot of people, my peers got engaged during college and got married right after college or even during college.

[00:22:13] Cause that was what you did. And maybe they were in love and maybe that was the right relationship. But from my outside view, looking in, it was like, I was a lot more, I was just like, what’s happening. Why are we viewing this romantic? thing as like the end all be all and why did I was questioning for myself in adulthood?

[00:22:31] Like why did I fall into that trap as well?

[00:22:34] Faith: It’s hard to avoid. I think you’re right that like you would think that people are starting to hear more about, we talk so much about

[00:22:42] Lily: community. And you shared community has become like a buzzword. Yeah. And yes, keep going.

[00:22:49] Sorry for interrupting.

[00:22:50] Faith: No, exactly. Like it’s such a buzzword and we, have I feel like more like articles and this and that about the importance of friendship and how, [00:23:00] there are different ways to live your life. And yet I just don’t know that is. Like reaching people as much as you might think or hope.

[00:23:07] I think people still, yeah, see being in a relationship as the goal. And then I think couples still really tend to, withdraw. And there’s research that supports that. But people are, who are married on average. Have less contact with like relatives and neighbors and friends.

[00:23:28] And so I think this, yeah, still really an issue.

[00:23:31] Lily: Yeah. And again, this is all from the article. Don’t like, don’t let love take over your life, which is so good. And you, in the beginning of the article mentioned that as your friends become coupled, it felt like waking up to a ghost town.

[00:23:45] Yeah. What has that been like for you personally?

[00:23:48] Faith: It’s, I’ve, over time I’ve had some of those friends relationships have ended and some new ones have started. So this kind of does change over time and I’ve experienced both like feeling so [00:24:00] grateful to have so many single friends and then all of a sudden being Oh no, am I the only single one again?

[00:24:04] That’s yeah, it’s a bad feeling. It’s even just in terms of like my weekly schedule, you can really tell the difference or like when my friends are in. Relationships, they disappear a little bit not all of them, but some of them and then that’s, what the people I would be spending my time with spending all your time with your partner is not great for you or for your relationship, but it’s also.

[00:24:28] Not great for all the single people who want to spend time with you too.

[00:24:32] Lily: Yeah, I think that’s so apt. And if you’re coupled listening to this, myself included, I think I want to be really intentional about hanging out with and spending time with friends period. And then also single friends.

[00:24:46] Cause it is, it. Is tough, especially, pandemic considerations. It was just me and Chris in this small apartment for, 2. 5 years consistently [00:25:00] until, things started to open back up more consistently. There’s habit also that needs to be stretched, like shifted potentially for a lot of coupled folks who’ve become more insular and then kids like couples that have kids is another huge thing.

[00:25:17] Like a lot of my clients and myself when I was single. When a friend would have a kid or when a friend would get in a relationship, I was like, okay, great. Okay, congratulations. I love that for you. And for me, I have feelings. What do you have thoughts about that?

[00:25:33] Faith: Kids is a big, complicating factor.

[00:25:35] Yeah. And I thought about this when I was writing the story, it was like, I, it’s almost different if you’re talking about a couple that doesn’t have kids versus like to some degree when you have kids, like you just are going to be spending a lot of time with the kid together as a family, I think for many people becomes even harder to make that time for friendship.

[00:25:55] And that’s totally understandable. And I think you do have different phases of your life where, of course. [00:26:00] Sure. friends less often in some of those phases. It’s very difficult and to some degree you have to Allow for some messiness, like I talked about the piece and there’s like a messy intimacy that you need, when you’re like, just letting people in and trying to make it all work and giving different connections, attention you can’t put them all in little boxes, like sometimes your friends have to be with your kid or sometimes, you take the 10 minutes in between Before dropping your kid off somewhere where you’re like stuffing a sandwich in your mouth and also calling a friend and being like, I remember that this thing was happening to you today.

[00:26:38] How is that? I have to go, but I’m thinking of you.

[00:26:41] Lily: I love the term messy intimacy. I think that the concept of being messy can be really affronting, challenging and liberating for especially high achieving folks, especially people socialized as women who have been, like climbing ladders.[00:27:00]

[00:27:00] And the idea of being messy feels antithetical to moving forward, but or antithetical to like conception of self, even if you’re conceiving of yourself as put together, or want to. Messy intimacy can be really liberating. And what I’m hearing is also this like permissiveness that you can give yourself to show up, even if it’s not Exactly how you hoped you’d be able to show

[00:27:23] Faith: up.

[00:27:24] Exactly. Yeah. I think we tend to have an idea that like, okay, if I’m gonna see this friend, I need to like, make a plan and, schedule it in advance and have it be just with that person, there’s nothing else going on. And if I have them over the house needs to be clean or I need to get my undivided attention.

[00:27:42] And that’s like a nice ideal, but it’s better to have, to see your friend when. And how you can and to not see your friend at all, just just reach out, don’t give yourself such a bar, try to connect when you

[00:27:54] Lily: can. And I want to point people if they’re curious about friendships, how to build friendships.

[00:27:59] My [00:28:00] recent episode with Daniel Boehner Jackson, who wrote the book fighting for our friendships. So so good. That episode. So good. Blake Blankenbechler. Is also a friendship expert and educator. And that episode is so good. So go check those out. If you want to learn how to build new friendships and deepen established ones, I want to get into a topic that you bring up in the article, take yourself on a date.

[00:28:21] I love this image. I don’t know if you still do it. This was written in this published in 2022, but like the movie date, do you still do your movie date?

[00:28:28] Faith: I try to, I have to say I don’t do it every week. Like it’s not so consistent anymore. I actually have developed like a thing of seeing movies with friends so that, back to there being limited time.

[00:28:38] Like it’s hard to, keep having the self date, but it is. So I actually have a new year’s resolution to get back to having it. Yeah. One evening a week with no plans, just like intentionally hanging out with myself

[00:28:51] Lily: and I loved the image of you like going to a movie. This is what she gets into in the article.

[00:28:56] Y’all so good, going to a movie by yourself and then [00:29:00] walking across the Brooklyn Bridge and not having to talk to anybody about it and just like having fun. Thoughts that are not fully formed and that can be so permissive and it sounds liberating. I am curious because I do have a lot of clients who struggle with going out solo.

[00:29:18] And I think you hit the nail on the head when you wrote this in the article, which is. Quote, research has found that people tend to assume they’ll appear lonely if they’re seen doing a pleasurable activity, such as dining out as opposed to a practical one, such as running errands alone, and their interest in the activity decreases as a result.

[00:29:41] So this fear of being perceived as lonely and what that will mean about you as a single person, I think, is really important to talk about and weighty for a lot of people.

[00:29:53] Faith: Absolutely. Yeah. And I can relate to it. I, feel self conscious. I have taken some solo [00:30:00] trips by myself.

[00:30:00] And when I’m in a different place, I feel like I can go to a restaurant by myself. And still, I’m like, I feel self conscious and I do feel like people will look at me and be like, why doesn’t she have anyone to come eat with her? And that’s even easier than if I was, to do that in a city where I live, like I could run into people I know I think that would be harder.

[00:30:20] Yeah.

[00:30:23] Lily: Getting the deeper than that, even I’m curious what, okay, so your brain is having the thought and this is not just you, but research says it’s a lot of people feel this way, your brain’s having the thought. People are going to perceive me as lonely. Okay. So I’m, I have an answer for what could be next in terms of the thought that your brain is having, but what do you think it is?

[00:30:43] Like people think that I’m lonely. Therefore.

[00:30:45] Faith: Therefore I’m not worthy. I’m not, I’m yeah.

[00:30:48] Lily: Like, yeah. And it just, and therefore, and there we have the whole beginning of the conversation, which is it’s frivolous to want a relationship and it’s pathetic to not have one.

[00:30:59] This [00:31:00] like double bind that people are in because of the world that we live in and the socialization that we’ve all undergone and the desires that we all have that complicated soup. Yeah. Yeah. It’s so tough. It is tough. I know. Okay. So the research shows like you’re fearing you’ll appear lonely.

[00:31:16] The Thought that people might be having is Oh, people are going to look at me and think, Oh, it’s pathetic that she’s single or whatever. She’s she wants a relationship that’s so desperate, but she doesn’t have one yet. And that’s so pathetic. Like all of these things that are going through people’s minds as single humans that they may be like cognitively fighting against with some cognitive dissonance.

[00:31:34] But what do you suggest that people do to release that narrative, but also bring more pleasure into their lives with solo time?

[00:31:43] Faith: Yeah. Yeah. I think that there are two parts to that in my mind. On the one hand, I think it’s okay to have alone time in private that, can still feel really meaningful for you.

[00:31:54] And you can really like, still make it an intentional time set aside for what you really [00:32:00] want to do. I think it’s important to use that time for something you really enjoy because often we save the things we enjoy to do with other people. And our alone time is just like, whatever alone time happens to happen in between those things.

[00:32:13] So then it’s of course we don’t enjoy it. Cause we’re not like, using it to do the thing that we’d really want to do. That’s like fun for us. That doesn’t need to be public. And I think it’s okay to give yourself some grace sometimes and be like, I’m not. Really feeling like going out to a restaurant and eating alone, like that’s okay.

[00:32:30] You always have to do that. It is worth sitting a little bit with the discomfort of going out by yourself and trying it. One thing that I really thought about in reporting this piece is that like we just have this idea that solitude is antithetical to connection. I just don’t think that’s true. And I think you really realize that when you go out and experience the world by yourself.

[00:32:51] You can really like. I think one of the researchers called this being alone together, like you’re in a museum and you’re like [00:33:00] around people who you don’t know, but you still feel their human presence. That can be really meaningful and just connecting with music and food and the senses and you Exist as a person in this world and you should be able to go out and experience that without having someone who will distract you from it, that’s good in its own way for the relationship, but it’s not necessarily helpful for your, like paying attention to the world.

[00:33:27] Lily: Oh, I love that. Hopefully inspires y’all listening to just be. Be curious about any discomfort that you have and to pursue pleasure because there is a such a thing as being alone together. I think that are like being, income in belonging in, pursuing something that brings you joy. And that is.

[00:33:46] With other people that you don’t necessarily know, like at the museum. I love that. There’s a vibration not to get woo, but I do feel when I’m at the Met or like when I’m at like Brooklyn Museum or whatever, if I’m [00:34:00] alone, if I’m solo, I do feel this like vibration in the air of like enjoying art at it at somewhere or going to a Broadway show or like, going to a comedy show solo, it’s like you feel the energy of other people around and that can be for me really invigorating and inspiring just on a

[00:34:19] Faith: more practical level.

[00:34:20] Like one thing I try to think about is that when I see people out alone, I don’t assume that they’re lonely or friendless or incomplete or romantically doomed. So I think sometimes we have to remind ourselves like we’re harsher to ourselves than we are to other people. People probably aren’t really thinking that.

[00:34:38] If you’re not thinking that, other people probably don’t think it about you.

[00:34:42] Lily: And I love what you wrote. I don’t remember exactly what, I think it’s this article about speaking to your, that the research shows that it’s actually it, to not get into dooms, the version of doom scrolling in your brain of doom thoughts that are like it’s sad that I’m up by myself to [00:35:00] avoid.

[00:35:00] Getting into that spiral of negative self talk, you shared that the research shows that speaking to yourself in the second or third person can be really helpful for that when you’re on a solo date. Can you share more about that? Yeah,

[00:35:13] Faith: I think it’s so funny. It is like getting out of the sort of like first person mentality can remind us that we do need to have a.

[00:35:22] Relationship with ourselves. Like you wouldn’t have a romantic relationship where you never spend time together. You also can’t have a good relationship with yourself without actually taking some time with and for yourself, right? And, yeah, as I was saying, we’re usually kinder and less judgmental to other people than we are To ourselves.

[00:35:41] So it can help us take a compassionate stance to our own thoughts and yeah, not get into our own loop. We take a step back and give some

[00:35:49] Lily: distance. When I read that part of the article, I just imagined what would that sound like? Lily is at a restaurant. Lily is, Eating, eating a sandwich that is very [00:36:00] delicious and like romantic, like what would it sound like for the romantic, like Nancy Meyers script version of Lily at a restaurant sounding and I think that can be fun to get out of your bias towards yourself.

[00:36:13] Faith: I think it’s fun and I think it can also just be like, Oh, you shouldn’t worry about that. Like also the second person is okay too. Like I actually do think that way. Sometimes I go back and forth between first and second, I think in my head. And it’s like you have a conversation with

[00:36:26] Lily: yourself.

[00:36:27] So interesting. I’m loving all of this. How has this beat, how has your, your research and these topics and your curiosity about these topics and deep diving into these topics about dating. . How has it changed your personal relationship to your dating life and love life? It’s

[00:36:42] Faith: funny, like when I go on dates and tell people that , I work on this, I always feel a little self-conscious.

[00:36:48] I do think that it. Changes my perspective when I’m going on dates because I’m like reminding myself that all this stuff really is interesting and I think it’s easy to [00:37:00] go into dates being like, I’m just here to be judged by someone because it is this like harrowing truth about, like the point of a date is to Show up and be judged.

[00:37:09] I find that really difficult. I’m very jealous of people who like dating. Like I, for this reason, like I, my instinct was to not diving into the sort of like intellectual side of the topic. I’m reminded that it is fascinating and it’s like such a treat to hear about people and get to know people and to ask questions.

[00:37:29] And if I bring that mentality of being just like genuinely curious yeah. I think that’s like a healthier space to be in. Oh, I get to, ask this person about themselves and it, even if it doesn’t go well, it’s just like an experience. And I’m putting my little journalist hat on.

[00:37:47] Lily: Got it. I think this idea of I’m going on the date to be judged is a really interesting faith. And as a coach, I’m just like I’m I want to dive into that. And I [00:38:00] just wonder how much a lot of my clients have in the past. And I too, in the past have defaulted to the other person is judging.

[00:38:13] Therefore, I need to put on a good show or I need to, not the best foot forward piece, but literally I need to perform well. Yeah, because I am being judged And what’s lost in that, I think, for a lot of folks is the agency to judge yourself. Yes. Yeah, completely. Not judge yourself like you, but judge the other person based on your wants and needs and desires, just like you would in a new friendship or whatever.

[00:38:42] And I think that how is that for you? Centering yourself in

[00:38:47] Faith: the dating process. It’s so relatable. I, yeah, I think I tend to go into it and I’m thinking about being judged and I’m thinking about Oh, we’re going to find out whether or not this person likes me. Yeah, of [00:39:00] course.

[00:39:00] And of course I’m also thinking about whether I like them, but it’s I lose track of the. Part where it’s also about the relationship and the connection, like judging either person about, themselves as what, how good is their performance or how good of a like a dating candidate or an option are they, but rather like, how are we getting along?

[00:39:23] It’s not even about either person. It’s Yeah. What’s going on between

[00:39:26] Lily: them? And I think of it like, do I not even are they performing well, but do I like them? Do I like hanging out with this person as a human? How are we doing versus how I’m performing on the date or how they, how are they performing on the date can be a helpful reframe of like, how does this feel?

[00:39:42] How does this dynamic feel? So thank you for sharing, and I can’t wait to keep reading your pieces on this subject and all subjects. I think your writing is relatable and informative and interesting. You always, just to [00:40:00] share compliments with you, you do a great job of answering the question that the brain has next.

[00:40:06] Oh, thank you so much. Bye. In the flow. Yeah. Like when you’re reading something, you’re like, but wait about, Oh, she’s got it. You do that really well. I’m curious as a purveyor of culture and a purveyor of these dating subjects. Is there something that you would recommend the listeners read or watch or listen to that?

[00:40:22] You’re obsessed with right now. Doesn’t have to do with dating, but it can

[00:40:26] Faith: on the subject of dating. I actually like love dating reality shows. Yeah. And. Yeah. Sometimes they can be a little bit like depressing because I feel like people are not treating each other. But I think they really are interesting.

[00:40:40] And talking about how we don’t take love and dating seriously, like people really see those reality shows. I think is so silly and like the worst of our culture, like in a way that like, I don’t think people even judge like baking shows that way. The great British bake off seen as more like.

[00:40:58] Yeah. High culture. I [00:41:00] think then partly because these dating shows can be a little bit like chaotic to say the least.

[00:41:06] Lily: Yeah. Which is your favorite?

[00:41:08] Faith: I think they all have their pros and cons. I would say Love Island is a good one for me. Oh, are you the

[00:41:14] Lily: one? The first queer season of are you the one is so good.

[00:41:19] So good. I think it’s on Netflix.

[00:41:22] Faith: Yes, I would, that’s my recommendation. It’s the queer season of Are You The One.

[00:41:27] Lily: So good. Very chaotic, but also very good. Very I loved it. And I love that recommendation. Faye, thank you so much. Is there anything you want to plug? Or anything, anywhere people can find you?

[00:41:38] Faith: Oh, thank you so much. I, I just hope people, yeah, keep reading my articles. You can find my author page on theatlantic. com and yeah, I’ll have more pieces coming

[00:41:47] Lily: out soon. Awesome. Thank you, Faith. Thanks for coming on. And thanks for listening y’all. I will talk to you next week. [00:42:00] Bye.