We’re diving into the intersection of body liberation, white supremacy, and dating with the incredible Jessica Wilson, MS. RD. As the author of “It’s Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women’s Bodies,” Jessica brings her expertise as a dietitian, storyteller, and community organizer to the forefront. Together, Lily and Jessica explore the interplay between shrinking our bodies in response to white supremacy and shrinking our desires, unpacking how Black and Brown women can reclaim their body liberation and prioritize care in the dating world.

We get into:

• The interplay between shrinking our bodies in response to white supremacy and shrinking our desires

• Jessica’s view on how black and brown women can reclaim their body liberation and prioritize care in the process of putting themselves out there in dating

• “Your body is not the problem,” 

• Spaces to seek out body liberation support and community

• How do we set boundaries for those, not on the same page or path with body liberation? 

• Jessica’s favorite moment of Black Joy since writing her book

Links:
Pre-order Lily’s upcoming book, Thank You, More Please!
Jessica’s website
Jessica’s book, It’s Always Been Ours

Show transcript:

[00:00:00] Lily: Hey, I’m Lily Womble, former top matchmaker and founder of Date Brazen. After setting up hundreds, I realized that with coaching, women could match themselves better than anyone else ever could. With my unconventional feminist approach, I’ve helped women around the world build courageous and self trust filled love lives.

[00:00:20] And now I’m here to support you. Get ready because I’m about to show you the exact steps you need to attract a soul quenching partnership and feel amazing about yourself along the way. This is the Date Brazen Podcast. Hello, gorgeous friends. Welcome to another episode of the Date Brazen podcast. Today we have a very, very special guest.

[00:00:39] Jessica Wilson is the author of It’s Always Been Ours, Rewriting the Story of Black Women’s Bodies, which published in February 2023. Jessica is the host of the podcast, Making It Awkward. She’s a dietician, storyteller, and community organizer who Whose experience is navigating the dietetic and eating disorder fields as a black queer [00:01:00] woman have been featured on public radio shows and in print media, including the New York times.

[00:01:04] She is the co creator of amplify melanated voices, a movement to center black and brown people in conversations about social justice. Jessica knows the grandeur of black joy and invites everyone to celebrate it for the magnificence and resistance it is.

[00:01:20] Jessica: Hi, Jessica. Hey, thanks so much for having me.

[00:01:23] Lily: So glad you’re here.

[00:01:25] Your book is beautiful. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah. We were talking before we hit record and we’re going to get into the dating, intersection of dating, diet culture, white supremacy of it all. And first, I just want to start with a year out from having your book. Pub day. How are you feeling? What has the impact been having this book in the world?

[00:01:49] I would love to start there

[00:01:51] Jessica: right before I talk to you. I realized that this is the day. This is the book birthday. You’re the first person I’m talking to. Oh, my God. [00:02:00] Yes. So that’s super exciting. It has been a wild ride to see the book. Absolutely. A lot beforehand, it was like, who’s your target audience?

[00:02:09] And I was like, anybody who wants to read the book, but to see who’s really taken to it. A lot of dietitians, eating disorder, um, clinicians, because of the focus on how eating disorders present differently in. Black women and other populations. It’s been really helpful for a lot of people, a lot of Black folks, trans folks, and folks in larger bodies feeling seen.

[00:02:30] And then for some reason, it really hit home for a lot of Black women in the South, which was just very sweet for me. Yeah. Something I hadn’t expected. So it’s been surprising and wonderful. Are you from the South? Do you have family in the South? Oh, yeah. So I am in California, but my father’s side of the family is in the South.

[00:02:53] And so he was quoted about his experiences there. My aunt was quoted who lives in the South. [00:03:00] And that was a lot about the respectability that shows a lot up a lot. Yeah. Which can, you know, show up in dating too.

[00:03:07] Lily: Oh my God. Well, and Before we get into the dating of it all, I just do want to touch down on like, what has been your, cause let’s celebrate this.

[00:03:15] If you don’t mind. I don’t mind. No, I should have had a cake on this show. Uh, well, we, I will verbally affirm the shit out of you to be the, the podcast cake. And then please get yourself a piece of cake or a whole cake after this. Yeah. Cause it’s so celebratory. How long did you write the book? And then.

[00:03:35] Yeah. What are you thinking? Your face said something. I want to hear it.

[00:03:38] Jessica: Yeah, I’ll start at the beginning. So after Amplify Melanated Voices launched in 2020, I became more well known in like the nutrition dietetics portion. The New York Times featured me and what it’s just like being a dietitian who isn’t a quinoa and kale dietitian.

[00:03:58] I refer to it and [00:04:00] try to speak more culturally relevant, uh, with my clients. And from that, an editor reached out to me and said, would you like to write a book? I said, no. Uh, she said, would you like to write a book? So no, it’s going to be the same as all your posts on Instagram, uh, just longer. And I believed her, which was.

[00:04:20] The silliest, one of the silliest choices I have ever made. I was working full time. It took two years to write a book because it was from scratch. You know, some people present like a proposal, then they have to write it, but it was like from zero words to 65, 000 emails.

[00:04:41] Lily: Wow. That’s really into it. I too, I have a book coming out this year and the phrase like you’ve written so many Instagram posts or like I’ve written so many marketing emails and I wrote that first chapter and my publisher was like, Lily, you know, you don’t have to sell us the book.

[00:04:57] They’ve already bought it. Like this isn’t a chapter. This is a [00:05:00] marketing emails. Like, well, that’s what I know how to write. So it was such a learning for me. It sounds like. For you to

[00:05:08] Jessica: yeah, and then because of a lot of my work is community oriented and based, uh, one of the favorite parts was going through, you know, my friend groups and just letting them be a part of it.

[00:05:21] The person on the cover, so Shana on the cover is featured in the book, but she’s also belatedly decided to be on the cover after the first concept fell through and it was just. Like a real full circle of this is for people and with people. So it was great.

[00:05:42] Lily: I love that. Well, again, congratulations. A year after pub date is so exciting and I think everybody needs to pick it up.

[00:05:49] I remember I had already gotten my copy last year, but I went into my local bookstore, bookstore magic, and it was like front and center and I loved seeing it up there. It was, and your friend’s [00:06:00] name on the cover. Is on the cover. Shayna, it’s so beautiful. Like, it’s just such a joyful embodiment of the text, you know?

[00:06:09] And so that leads me into, um, you know, getting into the dating intersection with your work. You know, you mentioned respectability. Which is your second chapter. I believe. Yeah, it’s in the first third of the first movement. Yes. First of three. So respectability and intersecting with dating. I’m also in reading it and like getting my questions and thoughts together.

[00:06:31] I was seeing this like. Intersection between the dating space being this, because I call dating a microcosm of every hope, joy, dream, fear, insecurity, desire that we have as human beings. And as such, because the way we do one thing is the way we do everything. Of course, dating, the dating space reflects the world.

[00:06:48] So it’s a hotbed of white supremacy and racism and the ways capitalism has

[00:06:54] Jessica: Right. You know,

[00:06:55] Lily: made our lives difficult and reduced us to numbers, [00:07:00] you know. Yeah. So I wondered about the interplay between Shrinking our bodies or black and brown women, especially being, you know, socialized to shrink their bodies in response to white supremacy and also shrinking our desires in a dating context or like, and I wonder if you had any thoughts on that to open up that conversation.

[00:07:21] Jessica: Yeah, um, so the shrinking piece, you mentioned that, and I think that’s great that you pulled it out. I talk about. Shrinking because, you know, Black women and Black people are often told for too much. Yes. So we’re too loud. We’re too, you know, we’re making, we’re laughing too loudly in public. Uh, we’re either angry or, you know, sexualized and all of these things.

[00:07:42] And so making ourselves smaller in one way, being more respectable or restricting and literally making ourselves smaller are two key things that I’ve seen come out in the dating worlds for Black women. And You know, we can look at dating apps and see that Black women are the [00:08:00] least desirable among women on dating apps.

[00:08:03] I think that, you know, everyone is performing in some way. Some of us have to perform more than others, depending on where we’re positioned in society. And I think it is a very conscious effort for a lot of Black women to notice when we’re in social settings, when we’re in the dating world. Cool. The ways that, you know, we literally market ourselves.

[00:08:25] Yeah. To people around us in order to be less than what people might assume.

[00:08:30] Lily: It is, you know, a question that a lot of the clients of mine who are black women and brown women ask these questions and group coaching calls and about this. How I am treated in the world is very much making dating even harder.

[00:08:45] Dating is already hard. And then it’s made even harder or a deeper hotbed for harm. If you’re on a dating app, right? Cause you mentioned that the stat that black women are the least swiped on demo. Which is disgusting and [00:09:00] also very indicative of everything that you’re writing about in the book. But I’m curious about your view on how Black and Brown women specifically, how Black women specifically can reclaim their body liberation and prioritize their care and maybe even pleasure in the process of putting themselves out there in a dating context.

[00:09:21] Do you have any thoughts on that?

[00:09:22] Jessica: I think a lot of what comes up with body stuff, but also probably dating stuff is a lot of it is like the inner stuff, you know, if you feel good about yourself, you know, that’s like, that’s the real work. And, you know, for so many of us for black and brown women, for people in larger bodies, like there’s just so much we can do like internally and like, still have to interact with the world.

[00:09:47] One thing that I always recommend to people is having that community of people. So you’re not isolated in this experience because it is happening, you know, across the board and finding people who can either relate [00:10:00] or have similar experiences is one way just to feel not alone and to know that you’re not making it up as you’re swiping and it’s not happening.

[00:10:09] You’re like, is it just me? It’s definitely me. No, it’s not. And so having people around to build you up when you’re feeling broken down is, is one way and then navigating and just, it’s easy for me to say, as somebody who was married to be fully honest and out there. I also think that being open to the people who will want and love you for who you actually are, rather than putting a performative self out there and then needing to deal with the consequences for that person who, you know, falls in love with the performative self can be helpful.

[00:10:45] And that, you know, can look like a lot of different ways, but

[00:10:49] Lily: yeah, let’s talk about your love life. If you’re open to it, what was your dating life like? And how did you See the intersection of like your work because it’s interesting with [00:11:00] people of different professions, caregiving professions, healthcare professions, like your work comes into how you date.

[00:11:06] Like I was a professional matchmaker when I was dating and that was an interesting interplay. But I’m curious for you, like what was your dating life like? And you shared you’re married now and what was your dating life like? How did you see your work intersecting with how you were showing up in your dating life?

[00:11:23] Jessica: Wow, that’s so good. So I had dated men all through high school, had a long term boyfriend, went to undergrad with, still dating that guy, something I don’t recommend to people, you may have already had people, so I went away. We were still dating. That was not the choice for me. But with that experience, I got to explore a lot more about myself and really then.

[00:11:47] Own that. Yes, indeed. I am a queer woman. I’m not a straight woman. Yeah. And with that, and this like grand understanding, we’ll say less than perhaps an awakening, [00:12:00] everything was out to like, I could explore everyone and everything. And just like, what does that mean when everybody is on the table? And then, so at that point, well, I am unclear, uh, what To do with myself, so I’m just going to go about my life and be as loud as I can.

[00:12:20] And someone will see that. Yes. And someone did.

[00:12:24] Lily: Can I ask about that specifically? Cause that’s so interesting. I’m sure that there’s like, you know, time and space. And cause a lot of folks that I speak to respond to, to a realization. Especially if they’re used to shrinking in their life, not with I’m going to be as loud as I can be.

[00:12:44] So I can meet the person who’s into that. How did you come to that? Was it just in you? Was it how you were raised? Like, would love to hear. Part of it was how I

[00:12:52] Jessica: was raised. My dad is also featured in the book and I don’t know if they’re swearing here, but he’s definitely a gave no fucks type of [00:13:00] guy. He owned his own business.

[00:13:02] He’s a silly, sassy guy. Yeah. And really taught me to not care what others thought about me. And after being in a long term relationship with a guy and then like conforming to what that looks like to be in a straight relationship, it was like, I, first of all, I don’t know who I am. So let’s explore that. I was also relatively young.

[00:13:27] I was still my early 20s. So I didn’t feel any pressure there. And so then, yeah, still continuing in school and just like flirting with everyone to see kind of what sticks. Yeah. Cause it was like

[00:13:40] Lily: fun. It was like, well, we’re just gonna be out there. What do you remember about that experience of flirting with everyone?

[00:13:48] I would say that

[00:13:50] Jessica: my style of flirting is really playful and so picking up on people who were able to play back rather [00:14:00] than like having a script or like trying to come up with lines. Yeah, it was just more of like who I developed a banter with and yeah. The first person became my first queer partner.

[00:14:11] Amazing.

[00:14:12] Lily: It sounds like you were embodying your dad’s, like, give no fucks, like, joy and the embodiment of joy and pleasure in that experience too. I think that’s so great.

[00:14:20] Jessica: And exploring that because what is that? What does that even

[00:14:24] Lily: look like? Right. And I also am curious about when you, uh, You know, as we talk about body liberation and liberating yourself from the ties of white supremacy connected to diet culture, do you remember having any like body thoughts, uh, that were impacting the way you were showing up in your love life?

[00:14:46] And if so, can you speak to any of that?

[00:14:50] Jessica: I would say it was less body pressures in say my relationship, but then queer spaces. So aesthetics were very. [00:15:00] Different than straight spaces and wanting to fit in and like, see and be seen as queer and not, yeah, not be ambiguous or not have like, dove in fully in to that community.

[00:15:14] So what did that look like? What did I wear, but also how did my body look in those clothes that the people were wearing? And that I think was more the pressure there. So that was thinner in the. Early 2000s, because yeah, you could wear baggy clothes, but showed off, you know, different parts of your body in different ways, body stuff came up in that way, then, and then later on, you know, in my later 20s, I may have been lucky, but I had just assumed that in queer community, people were more open to bodies that were just different, especially when we were, you know, I was younger, we’ll say.

[00:15:56] And so I didn’t know what I was doing a lot at [00:16:00] the time. And so I was, maybe it was just because I was open to being like, what is all of this happening? Yeah, I’m going to be this and folks can be, you know, what they’re doing. And if it doesn’t work out, that’s okay.

[00:16:13] Lily: I love hearing about this. What is it like to recall these moments for you?

[00:16:17] Jessica: I think the weird moments which resonate with other friends that have asked about this type of thing, especially people in recovery from eating disorders, the body ideals of straightness were some of the pressures, but then. You know, I’m thinking about one friend in particular, once she found, you know, queer community, just the body pressures are different.

[00:16:41] And that’s when she was far more able to just accept what it was and move forward based on that. Yeah. Yeah. So when I asked her, this came out specifically when, yeah, it was last year or the end of 2022, when everybody was talking about like [00:17:00] heroin, you know, Sheik is back in and like ultra thin and, you know, asking queer folks and they were like, yeah, that was never like a thing for me anyhow, because that was real straight.

[00:17:08] Lily: Yeah, right there. We have, like, the centering of straightness, the heteronormativity in the culture of like, this is the narrative. The heroin chic is the thing. It’s like, I’m hearing you say queer folks were like, no, no, not for me.

[00:17:22] Jessica: No, those body pressures were, yeah, just not there because that was what straight folks were doing.

[00:17:29] Not what we were doing.

[00:17:31] Lily: Obviously, like, body liberation is. Collective liberation as well, not just individual and what kind of advice would you give to somebody who is struggling with the pressure of being in a thinner body as they are dating?

[00:17:47] Jessica: So 1 ways that I talk about that, you know, shrinking and restriction to is that safety and survival.

[00:17:53] So in dating for sure, we’re just going to be more desirable when we conform and, you know. [00:18:00] Being thinner, shrinking ourselves is just one way to do that. So when people are engaging in that and like understand the reality of those pressures, cause it’s easy for me to say like, don’t worry about it, but that’s not reality at all.

[00:18:12] I think just knowing that your body inherently is not the problem here because a lot of us think my body is the problem or like a project to be fixed here. And I think just knowing. And understanding the realities and not blaming ourselves for that, and having some compassion there while still knowing, you know, the realities and how this plays out can help people by putting that ownership on society and not on.

[00:18:41] Lily: Yeah. You know, the question I get a lot from folks in larger bodies who I work with is, and I, I am a midsize person, like size 12, 14 and growing up in the South as well. You know, I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, where being a midsize person, dating was [00:19:00] not as desirable. You know, that, that was definitely taught to me.

[00:19:03] I. Yeah. Was dating only men, realized I was queer in my like mid late twenties and came out to my family and friends. This is just context for you. This is maybe not having to do with the, but I came out to family and friends and then I met my now husband, Chris, shortly thereafter, um, and we’re monogamous.

[00:19:23] And so I didn’t, I am queer, but I didn’t have like a robust queer dating experience. However, uh, Had I realized I was queer earlier, maybe my body pressure sort of felt different. And the question on everybody’s minds that I speak to generally who are in larger bodies, or at least not thin, straight sized bodies are, I’m going to go on a date and somebody’s going to look me up and down and judge me.

[00:19:48] And it’s going to feel like rejection, unspoken rejection. And my body is the reason that I’m single, right? You know, like I hear that a lot. And [00:20:00] I’m wondering what you would say. It’s a big question, not that you have to solve it, but I’m curious what you would say. I mean, I

[00:20:05] Jessica: can’t solve society and that’s the problem.

[00:20:08] No, no, no, no. Um, and then I’ll just mention also the flip side of that is also like, I’m worried that people are going to have a fat fetish and that’s why they’re gonna like date me. And I’m like, so does that mean everybody else has a thin fetish if they’re wanting thin people? So that’s, some people are just attracted to people that are larger and that’s.

[00:20:28] Bye. And then, you know, again, it’s easy to say, but like, if somebody’s values are, you know, not dating someone who is, you know, however, uh, size, like, do we want that person anyhow? And for people who are, you know, making themselves smaller, Doing whatever diet it is right now, you know, the odds are that we’re going to gain that weight back.

[00:20:52] So like being able, you may be whatever size you are now, but that’s not really long term based on the science of what happens with dieting. [00:21:00] So just keeping those, you know, Things in mind, but also it stinks a lot. So when people have like full body pictures on dating sites or wherever you are, that can be again dealing with that rejection, but also people aren’t going to be surprised.

[00:21:18] And if people, yeah, are worth getting to know, they’re not going to care what size you are.

[00:21:25] Lily: I agree. Hard agree. And as a 13 year old child who went to Weight Watchers meetings with her mother, I would love to dive into one particular page of your book, page 42. Okay. And I’m going to read from it. Okay, great.

[00:21:41] And, oh yeah, you don’t, don’t feel the need. I’ve got, I’ve got it. Okay. And just like, also just celebrating. It’s been out a year. So exciting. Okay. context to why I highlighted this and why I want to bring this up. So many people are, especially white folks who are listening, perhaps, who are thinking of diet culture as the devil.

[00:21:59] Like the diet [00:22:00] culture is the, is the problem here. I want to go deeper because dating is intersectional because I want our feminism in this podcast to be intersectional. I just want to like bring this up and dive into it. So. The rallying cry to dismantle diet culture is a simple solution to a collective pursuit to wither our bodies when there are far greater and consequential systems at play.

[00:22:22] Weight Watchers WW is not the primary reason that black women are told they are too much. The worship of thinness in our society is not the primary threat to black women’s existence. And I don’t believe diet culture is the primary reason that black Black women seek to shrink and contain their bodies when diet culture and the culture of dieting are oppressive and traumatic messages of liberation, quote unquote, get to be all food is guilt free.

[00:22:46] Eat the damn cake. Food has no world value. Live, laugh, love. And so many people stay here where it’s safe believing these messages are the radical transformation everyone needs. Let’s talk about [00:23:00] this. All right.

[00:23:01] Jessica: People could probably hear I am like agreeing with the first day. I’m like, I haven’t been on page 42 and I’m like, oh, yeah, I wrote that still holds up.

[00:23:12] Okay,

[00:23:12] Lily: right. Right. Look, that’s what we all hope. Yeah, I agree with our book a year later. Look, this book is beautiful. And I just was so struck by that because it’s really putting the onus, it’s really for me just remembering that it’s this problem of shrinking our bodies, especially for, and I’m a white woman with a lot of underprivileged, especially for black women and brown women, like it’s so much deeper.

[00:23:38] And we’re doing this conversation, a disservice about diet culture and shrinking when we don’t look beneath just the diet culture of it all.

[00:23:47] Jessica: Mm hmm. What are your thoughts? Many times I had looked up the definition of diet culture which is attributed to Christy Harrison, just to truly kind of understand [00:24:00] what people were talking about.

[00:24:02] So, of course, WW, Weight Watchers, um, and any of these things. Other marketed and capitalistic programs for weight loss, we’re getting like a lot of the specific blame. Like, they were always in the mix. Like, it’s always these, you know, companies that are trying to tell us and sell us. And I was like, but why?

[00:24:22] Why is that working? You know, what in us and about us is saying, yes, I will pay this money or yes, I will go to meetings amongst people who feel like similarly bad about themselves. Like, yes, I’m going to participate in that. And so that was the question of, yeah, because why is it working? If nobody bought it, it would work.

[00:24:45] Then so what were people getting out of shrinking themselves and, you know, perhaps over and over again, because again, that’s how diets work. And that again, was the shrinking of people to increase even job prospects in the [00:25:00] field and course partners, but like respect. So when we’re like, just eat the cake or feel comfortable in your body, or it’s really just an internal problem, you know, with yourself, that applies to a lot of thin people who are feeling the pressures, you know, to stay thin and be thin.

[00:25:17] But when we really pull back the curtain and look at the work of Dr. Sabrina Strings and Deshaun Harrison, who really connect, the idea of blackness that is gluttonous, that’s hedonistic, and just looking at blackness and connecting fatness with the same language there just serves for black women, black and brown women, like the further we can get from what people.

[00:25:47] Will assume is hedonistic. What people will assume is like gluttonous. The better off in society. We are will look like better. People is really what? Yeah. So it’s the better. It’s the morality that [00:26:00] she’s trying to, you know, not be as fill in the blank that came along. So just eat the cake or donuts are fine.

[00:26:08] Like, it’s not going to erase all of that has happened. Yeah.

[00:26:13] Lily: Well, in the pressure of the body positivity movement. that exists. You know, Chrissy King talks about that in her book as well, and you do as well, but I hear a lot of my clients struggling with like, but I just don’t feel good about my body. I want to feel good about my body.

[00:26:28] And what would you say to them? Don’t we

[00:26:30] Jessica: all? That would be great. I would love that. Right. Yeah. I have not yet met a person. I also work with a lot of queer and trans people in my practice. And just loving a body that society is always, you know, punishing or policing or legislating is just hard. So again, having and knowing that it’s not your fault is good.

[00:26:57] But yeah, I never promise [00:27:00] anybody will love their bodies because even if I do on the inside, I still have to leave my house. Yeah. And the ways that I’m always reminded, you know, that my body, that I am too much is just like a constant, constant, constant. So, you know, what’s a different way to reframe that part or yeah, finding a community of people to talk about this with finding body liberation communities.

[00:27:25] They’re out there, people seeing themselves reflected and, you know. Spaces for larger people, for black people, for brown women.

[00:27:33] Lily: What spaces do you recommend in addition to, you know, friends and family communities? What spaces do you recommend folks, especially black and brown women or fems, seek out for body liberation support, support of any kind in this, in this general.

[00:27:50] Vain. I don’t know. I’m just like, what are resources, right? No, all the support. No, specifically related to having community to discuss body liberation [00:28:00] and to, to be in belonging.

[00:28:02] Jessica: Sure. There’s some online spaces that can be like helpful. Like I’m just going to tip my toe, you know, into this. Like, yeah, I’m, you know, have a lot of body shame.

[00:28:12] I feel a lot of ways about myself. So looking at Instagram accounts, of course, Chrissy King. There’s a lot of body liberation, like dance and movement. People like Eva Shana who have the get embodied online space, they hold dance and movement that virtually that is truly just all, you know, bodies because so often we don’t see bodies moving, um, that look like ours.

[00:28:40] Hiking spaces, you know, there’s unlikely hikers and just being able to see. People with our bodies doing things and out in the world, just being regular, um, not having to be exceptional can be helpful in bigger cities. They do have fat positive communities, so like chunky dunks and, you know, [00:29:00] fat swims and things like that.

[00:29:02] Can, you know, something to look lookup and digging into. Books like Deshaun Harrison’s Belly of the Beast really connects that and makes people oftentimes feel seen. If reading is the place for you to go, just starting with those texts and connecting with people. For a lot of people in Laguna, Positivity Pride is a really good community, especially for folks who are Latina, Latino, and Latinx identified.

[00:29:29] Just again, like seeing people be, it’s an overused term, but radical in the ways that they are visible can be helpful.

[00:29:39] Lily: And obviously people will love your book. Let’s do a plug. You’re reading your book as well, Jessica Wilson’s book. I wonder about. What this body liberation looks like in your life and in your marriage, potentially, what does it look like in practice for you?

[00:29:56] Jessica: I’ll start with my marriage and my spouse and [00:30:00] I my spouse is non binary and I are in our 40s And, you know, as much as we would have loved to assume we would stay the same size forever, it turns out that hormones come for everyone. And bodies do things and really just seeing what that means to love somebody at, you know, whatever state or whatever size and just doing that unapologetically and going about my life and not.

[00:30:28] Talking trash about my body and my marriage or with anybody really helps. I talk, you know, in the book about my relationship with my mentee and when she was staying here during COVID saying nothing bad about myself. So her name is Lexi and she’s, you know, Had an eating disorder for a very long time. And so just me being normal about my body, trying my hardest and just modeling that bodies are going to be bodies and change and shift.

[00:30:58] And then one thing that I [00:31:00] mentioned and really culminates is just that joy in the end, um, and finding, you know, one’s own joy, joy and pleasure, black joy. And just how do I find. Yes, the liberation from laughing loudly in public. It’s a great way. So again, being those bodies that are visible in public. And then, yes, being the one in spaces.

[00:31:22] I have loved and truly loved being in a fat positive spaces in the Bay Area. It was called Cupcakes and Muffin Tops, a plus size clothing and bake sale. And just people were, yes, they’re changing in the aisles, just like taking clothes off. Putting them back on, you know, at all sizes and it was just this like, wow, when we’re here and watching people just have bodies, it’s like such a wonderful thing to be around people who don’t care.

[00:31:56] And again, this may be helpful somewhere. Is having [00:32:00] and finding folks, you know, even if it’s just one person that you don’t care about changing in front of it, it just makes so much difference, you know, yeah, changing into a swimsuit, being in a swimsuit, just having no cares with that one person is like, in that moment.

[00:32:16] So wonderful that you can just being yourself around.

[00:32:21] Lily: Yeah, I, uh, wonder about boundaries with. People in your life, who the you collectively boundaries of people who are not on this journey, you know what I’m saying?

[00:32:34] The, uh, the mothers, the fathers, the caregivers, the aunts, uncles, how do you suggest folks who, you know, pick up your book and start their body liberation journey, join a collective of people who have been doing this work for many, many years, right? They’re on this journey. How do we, how do they. How do we set boundaries with people in our lives who are not on the same page?

[00:32:57] Jessica: I have found that the term boundaries [00:33:00] or even trying to set boundaries. So I’ll use my mother specifically, who of course thinks she’s great when it comes to like feminist politics, you know, she gets it, she would never say stuff, but on occasions like Thanksgiving, being so specific about things that are okay with me and also making it about me.

[00:33:22] Thanks. So specifically after we’re done with the meal, you know, I don’t want to hear, you know, talk about fullness or not eating the next day. So, you know, so in the past, I would have said, like, I don’t want to hear body stuff. And, you know, to her, that’s not body stuff, you know, like those things are not connecting for her.

[00:33:40] It

[00:33:40] Lily: doesn’t feel connected.

[00:33:41] Jessica: No, that’s talking about fullness, right? That’s right. I can talk about fullness. It doesn’t mean anything. But yeah, so being really specific for me about stuff that I don’t want to hear about. And I did that over the phone rather than in person. Oh, good, good, good. Yeah. What was her reaction to [00:34:00] that?

[00:34:00] She would come back and honestly be like, but can I say this? You know, it’d be like, right? No, no, no, no. Nope. Yeah. Yep. And you know, I would just say, we’re going to try it this time. And for my mother, it went fine. And I don’t think she was thinking so hard about not doing it after a time. You know, now she’ll say, I know you don’t like to hear this, but da da da da da.

[00:34:27] Lily: Yeah,

[00:34:27] Jessica: what do know that she knows. She doesn’t expect me to care, which is great. You know, if she feels like she is called to say a thing, she knows I don’t care. And I won’t respond. You know, I’ll do something else. If we’re out to dinner, I’ll just turn it to the person next to me and just be like, she’s feeling called.

[00:34:46] That is her journey.

[00:34:49] Lily: You know, I’m not going to care or pay attention. Right. Well, that is so beautiful because you’re creating this neutrality for yourself that like her words, [00:35:00] they’re not the truth, which is where I think a lot of people have some cognitive dissonance around, like, your mom’s words hurt your caregiver or your aunt’s words hurt because part of you believes that it’s true that you shouldn’t eat the next day if you’re so full and.

[00:35:15] What’s the first step to create some more neutrality around like that’s her journey giving that back to her versus internalizing it, especially

[00:35:23] Jessica: with family. I can see how over decades. She’s developed this, right? It’s not a today thing. It’s not a this year thing. I understand that this has been her reality for so many years.

[00:35:35] So I’m going to let that be hers. First of all, I had nothing to do with it. Yeah, great. Yeah. And big family. Thanks. I have found, you know, that talking to the one, you know, person who’s also giving the side A situation, you know, that cousin who was like, I don’t know, or didn’t play along in the whole like group think of like, Oh yeah, the one who’s also silent.

[00:35:58] I have found that people go and talk to that person [00:36:00] though. Oh yeah, I cannot handle this. And right. Yeah. So we’re going to sit next to each other or across from each other and we’re going to just like have our own moments to ourselves can be helpful too.

[00:36:10] Lily: I’m just getting the sense that you’ve been so intentional with community in this cover, like bringing in, like the impact of community and belonging in this conversation and that your book is this expression of that as well.

[00:36:24] Like, you know, you mentioned Lexi and the book is dedicated to Lexi Rinty and the people that you have asked to contribute to this book and even bringing up, you know, the cousin or the friend at the family gathering, who’s giving the side eye as well, like. It’s all, I’m hearing just the theme and the running, the running theme is community and belonging and seeking that out proactively for yourself.

[00:36:46] Jessica: I think as a clinician, so, you know, at the top, and I’ve not mentioned this since a dietician, but sitting with people who, for the first time, say out loud, you know, my mom started taking me to Weight Watchers at [00:37:00] 10, or just like being the first person that people have told a lot of things to, like, once it is out there.

[00:37:06] Like, I can say that again, I can be honest about the impact that had on me rather than this isolating feeling because so often we’re isolated or think that we’re the only ones feeling or thinking this way many people have been to Weight Watchers at age 10. So, like, what could that look like to find people and talk about what that is?

[00:37:26] Lily: Well, I want to end with a question about Black Joy as it, you know, you reference it in your beautiful bio in the back flap of the book as like, it’s inviting into magnificence and resistance. I want to know what, what is one of your favorite moments of Black Joy from the past year as it relates to your book being out in the world?

[00:37:45] Jessica: Great one. I think the messages, the DMs that even the emails that people have taken time to write about feeling seen has just like overwhelmed me with joy. And also then me [00:38:00] replying and then people saying, I didn’t think you were going to reply. And I’m like, no, no, no. These things are so great and so important.

[00:38:07] And I’m so impressed one with you for reaching out. And then Meeting people in person, so 2023 was really also like, uh, a back end to things. And so getting to meet people who have read it face to face and who laugh and who have not thought about, you know, joy as resistance or even pleasure as resistance to all of these things that are telling us we shouldn’t experience it.

[00:38:32] It has been. pretty joyful in the context of the book.

[00:38:36] Lily: That’s awesome. Well, Jessica, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I know this conversation hopefully will inspire so many people to go buy your book, hopefully at your local bookstore or wherever you buy books. And, uh, how can people follow you?

[00:38:51] How can people get in touch with you, work with you?

[00:38:53] Jessica: So I’m pretty active on Instagram, which is at, uh, jessicabwilson. com. MSRD [00:39:00] and the podcast you mentioned is called making it awkward and so much of it has been about body stuff. I thought it was going in and just going to talk about the work that I’ve done, but it’s been about eating disorders.

[00:39:11] It’s been about trans people and BMI. It’s been, oh, about the face that the wildly. The public health field and just the research field talks about food and which bodies are okay. All, you know, all these things have just come up. Your

[00:39:28] Lily: ultra processed diet stuff is so interesting. Y’all need to check this out.

[00:39:34] It was such an interesting experiment you did with Very interesting results.

[00:39:39] Jessica: Yeah. And I think that’s great because we’re realizing how much of just everything in society is body related. And it’s like, Oh, there was just a lot to say. Yes.

[00:39:49] Lily: Awesome. Well, everybody go listen to making it awkward. Go follow Jessica.

[00:39:54] We will link all of these things in the show notes of this episode and in the description of this episode. Thank you, [00:40:00] Jessica, for this conversation. I’m honored to have it.

[00:40:03] Jessica: Oh, it was so

[00:40:03] Lily: fun. Thank you so much. Thank you. Talk to y’all next week. Bye.