This one’s for you if dating has started to feel like a hamster wheel of painful experiences… and you keep thinking: I’ve done so much work on myself—why is this still so hard?

In this live session, I coach Quin through:

• the loop of type vs. essence-based preferences
• the fear of being “too much” in dating
• what to do when uncertainty triggers a full-body spiral
• how to tell if your “picker is broken”… or if you’ve been trained to assume you’re the problem
• self-compassion as a real tool (not a pep talk) to re-regulate and come back home to yourself
• how to update your EBPs so you’re not dating someone you have to parent or beg for affection
• community + dating after a big move

By the end, Quinn says it perfectly: this session felt like closing a bunch of tabs in her brain and finally having the system run again.

If you’ve ever been in the mindset of “it’s fate or it’s me,” I want you to hear this.

Work with Lily:

Read Lily’s book: Thank You, More Please

Watch on YouTube: youtube.com/@datebrazen

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Explore programs + resources: datebrazen.com

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Show transcript:

Lily (00:00)

Hey, gorgeous friends, welcome to another episode of the Feminist Dating Show. Today is a coaching session with the incredible Quin. Quin is an amazing human who you’re gonna get to know in a moment. And I know this episode is for you if you have felt like dating has felt like this hamster wheel of painful experiences.

If you get really confused between your type and essence-based preferences, if you feel like I’ve done so much work on myself, why does dating feel so difficult? Then this episode is going to resonate so hard with you. Quin is a lesbian, she’s neurodivergent, she’s also a therapist, and she comes in with this very specific kind of exhaustion. She, like I mentioned a moment ago, she’s navigating the loop of type.

versus essence-based preferences, some shame around relationship history and the length of relationships that she’s been in, the fear of being too much comes up a lot, and what it’s like when uncertainty in dating triggers a full body, going back to Arlene, triggers a full body spiral. So in this episode, we are going to, I am going to coach her through building emotional safety in the face of uncertainty, how

to know if your picker is broken or not. Maybe your picker has been trained to assume you’re the problem, and we’re gonna rewrite that script today. We’re gonna talk about how self-compassion actually works, not as a pep talk or a way to convince that everything’s fine, but a real tool to re-regulate and to come back home to yourself, and how to update your essence-based preferences so that you’re not dating someone you have to parent.

or beg for affection. ⁓ And we also talk about community, what it’s like to date and make friends after a big move. And by the end, Quin names it perfectly. This episode, this session felt like closing a bunch of tabs in her brain and finally having the system run again. ⁓ So I’m so excited for you to listen to this episode. I know that you are going to love it. And with that, let’s get into Quinn’s story.

Lily (02:53)

Quinn, welcome to the show. I’m so glad you’re here.

Quin Marilyn Rich (02:56)

Hello, Lily, I’m pleased and delighted to be here. Thank you for having me.

Lily (03:00)

Okay, well, I have been poring over your application and your updates form and all the info that we gathered from you. You are so self-aware and I feel ready for this session in my humble opinion. And I’m really excited to dive in with you. What feels important to know about you before we dive in?

Quin Marilyn Rich (03:23)

Um, well, I am a little bit of a late bloomer. didn’t start seriously dating as an adult until I was 27. I’m a lesbian, neurodivergent. And a lot of my experiences I think are shaped by just those those major identities.

it’s it’s been hard to try and parse what is a healthy and what is an unhealthy relationship, mostly because of my own background from my family of origin and some previous relationships I’ve had. But since 27, I’ve been in four relationships and a lot of other just, frankly bewildering dynamics. And so I’m coming in with just a curiosity to get to know what exactly is it?

that’s keeping me stuck because I’d love to figure it out. I feel like I have this MSW degree, I’m a therapist and I have all this knowledge and then when it looks at my own dating life it’s like I have no idea what’s going on.

Lily (04:19)

Gotcha. So tell me what do you, if at the end of this session we put a stamp on this and said, it’s successful, what would that look like for you?

Quin Marilyn Rich (04:31)

I think I would want a couple of things. I would want to know a better sense of what is it that I’m actually looking for versus like what is like, you know, my essence based preferences versus my so called type, right? Like the sort of trauma thing that I have in my head of who I’m supposed to be with. I think I would like a clearer sense of like what I need in a relationship, like what I’m actually shooting for. Sometimes I feel like I’m shooting in the dark.

Lily (04:39)

huh.

Quin Marilyn Rich (04:55)

I think I’d want to have more confidence in how I’m approaching my dating life. think right now I’m feeling just kind of a lot of confusion and insecurity.

And I’d want to be able to say, yeah, I’m doing enough, right? It feels like this is the kind of thing where you can never do enough to improve yourself or to shoot your shot or to go out there. And it’s like, I feel kind of exhausted. I’d like to be able to say this is how much I need to do in order to be successful in my dating life. And then I can leave it to the universe or leave it to, you know, the timing that I can’t

Lily (05:30)

All right, so just to recap, what I’m hearing is that you want clarity, that you feel, and you can correct me if any of this doesn’t feel like what you said or you wanna reiterate something. You are getting stuck in the type versus EBPs.

You are feeling this sort of hamster wheel effect maybe in dating and don’t know what enough is and it can be exhausting. And you want to feel more confidence in what you’re looking for and how you show up. Is that accurate?

Quin Marilyn Rich (06:05)

Yeah,

yeah, and think I will say, just sort of as an aside, I have a lot of sort of shame around some of the relationships I’ve been in because they were so conflictual. I’ve never been in a romantic relationship that’s lasted longer, even as long as a year. And so part of the lack of confidence is like, I have all of this so-called experience, but none of it is like really good data to draw on. So

Lily (06:33)

Let’s just dive right in there. What would be enough then? What standard is your brain sort of holding you to here that it would be enough if I had been in a relationship that had lasted X amount of time and that would prove X about me?

Quin Marilyn Rich (06:51)

I think, you know, the ability to have a relationship that had like gotten to the year mark, past the year mark, that we had like, worked through some like, standard couples problems, I feel embarrassed that things tend to fall apart in like, as soon as the honeymoon phase starts to end. And I think that people tend to view that as a red flag, right? If you don’t, like the thing is, is especially in the queer community, if you don’t talk to your exes, that’s a red flag. Well, two of them are abusive, one of them

avoidant discarded me and I have a lot of pain. And so it’s hard to to look at this and say, you know, without shame, like, you know, I learned from these things. Because not because I believe that I’m morally at fault for being a victim, but because like, people look at that and they’re like, she must there must be something wrong with her. If she can’t have a healthy relationship.

Lily (07:42)

Tell me about these people that look at you and say there’s something wrong with you for not having had a romantic relationship. Do you have an experience of being judged in that regard?

Quin Marilyn Rich (07:53)

It always sort of tends to happen, I think early on in the dating process, you start just like it just comes up as part of conversation. I don’t feel a need to like dump all this on somebody. But I also feel weird withholding it if if ⁓ if people ask about my dating history. And it’s hard to talk about in particular my last relationship because

Lily (08:02)

Sure.

Quin Marilyn Rich (08:17)

I’m frankly still figuring out up from down with it. And so when I tell people, know, I have this hard relationship, they want to know how it ended, right? Big question, what did you learn from your last relationship? How did your last relationship end? You know, those are common things people ask you.

And I think it’s hard for me to sort of share that like, lot of that was like, I was in survival mode, I was trying to figure out whether to stay with this person or whether to leave. ⁓ And people sort of see that and they get a sense of like, you’re a little much like you you’re kind of messy. Why you know, why are you bad talking your ex or? my god, if you’re this dramatic in your last relationship, I can’t imagine what you’d be like today. They don’t kind of

Lily (08:41)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Quin Marilyn Rich (09:00)

say it, but you know, you’ll have that conversation and you’ll notice a withdrawal, you’ll notice like, and it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s embarrassing. And then just, you know, I’ve posted on Reddit forums, looking for advice, there’s like a lot of lesbian love advice forums on Reddit, people are vicious, right? I got told that my picker was broken, I got told that I must be the problem. One person had told me I had borderline personality disorder. I’m like, excuse me, I, you don’t know me how

Lily (09:16)

Yeah.

I’m actually qualified

to know whether or not that’s the case professionally, yeah.

Quin Marilyn Rich (09:28)

I have a lot of things

going on that is not one of them. ⁓ And so. ⁓

Lily (09:33)

Why do

you feel, why did you post, let’s just break this down small pieces. Tell me about the logic behind posting on the Reddit forums.

Quin Marilyn Rich (09:44)

Yeah, so I am by nature, like if I have a problem.

I like to solve it, and I like to solve it using my big autistic brain, and like, let’s do some research, okay? So we have a lot of books on attachment theory, we have a lot of books on healthy dating, including yours, which I love, and recommend to my clients. We have a lot of research on, you know, how people get in relationships. Some of it’s for more general populations. Well, let me talk to other lesbians who are my age, just sort of a sampling, and see what, like, what are they experiencing right now? Here’s what I’m going through.

I I guess, because I don’t know why I assume this, guess because it seems like lot of people are struggling with love issues right now, lot of lesbians in particular, lot of neurodivergent lesbian in particular struggling with these issues, that I was going to go to this community and be understood. And it felt really hostile. And it tends to be that way in person too when I go to queer spaces, it’s like, I feel a little bit.

Lily (10:26)

Yeah.

Sure, that makes sense.

Quin Marilyn Rich (10:39)

out of place. It’s like I should be accepted here, but I’m not. And ⁓ it’s kind of hard. It felt scarier to do it in person, so I thought I would do it online.

I guess my answer to your question is I was looking for answers. I was looking for data. was looking for anybody who can give me some insight maybe that I’m not seeing. So I’m in my own therapy. I do a lot of research as a therapist myself. I work with a lot of attachment stuff. And so I just wanted to figure it out.

Lily (10:58)

Yeah. That makes sense.

Yeah.

I think that makes total sense and I ask because I’m afraid of Reddit. Me, myself, and I personally. It’s a…

Quin Marilyn Rich (11:15)

I have just I have fundamentally declared it assess pool after my experiences so.

Lily (11:18)

Right,

well, it’s a lot of, look, I’m not gonna say there aren’t helpful moments and there’s, you know, not helpful people on there, but there’s also a lot of unhelpful people. And so I think that, you know, this is a lesson to sort of put in your pocket of like, okay, if I were you, I would take this moment to recognize like, there are some people who are not to be trusted with giving me advice.

and I get to vet the people that give me advice. Sort of like you opted into this conversation. Does that make sense?

Quin Marilyn Rich (11:49)

Well, you Lily,

it makes sense. And it actually hits on a broader pattern that I have, which is, if there is a problem in the relationship, in any relationship that I’m in, I usually do two things. One is ⁓ I default to whatever my partner says is the interpretation of the problem. So, you know, my last ex, the narrative was very much that I’m too emotionally needy. I have too much anxiety. am. I’m she called me reactive. At one point, she called me manipulative.

of lacking integrity. And I’m just like, I guess this is true about me. And then I would also go to my friends and I would ask for it because you know, you trust your friends and family.

Lily (12:19)

Huh.

Quin Marilyn Rich (12:27)

But I would get their advice and I’d like, okay, maybe this relationship isn’t healthy. And then I’d go back to my ex and be like, okay, well, she has a point. And I didn’t really have a sense of my own compass in that. And I feel like it’s a similar, less intense, but a similar process now. It’s like, well, I can’t trust Reddit. I may or may not be able to trust these books I’m reading. I hope I can trust a Lily, but I don’t have my own compass always.

Lily (12:34)

you

So what, let’s just use me as an example. What would I can trust Lily mean to you? What would that mean to you?

Quin Marilyn Rich (12:58)

I think that if you saw any obvious red flags in me, you would tell me with kindness and compassion. I think that

If anybody was qualified to say this is just a person trying her best, it would be you. And you see a lot of people with similar dating backgrounds to me, so you probably have enough data, enough sample size. Also, maybe, I don’t know, maybe you have a different perspective on the human experience that I’m missing. I don’t know, more experience or a different neuro type or I don’t know. So maybe you have an outside perspective that I don’t have.

Lily (13:30)

You know, I’m sure I do. And the thing is, is that you do too. And my goal in this conversation is to help you value your own lived experience as much as you value my perceived expertise.

Quin Marilyn Rich (13:47)

Yeah, it’s an excellent point. I wish I could internalize it. I tell my clients that all the time, but… ⁓

Lily (13:53)

Yeah, well,

that’s why therapists need therapist coaches, need coaches. Therapists hire me as their coach. people need help. And I think that everybody, you know, I have so many therapist friends and we get on the phone and they’re talking to me about, you know, their life struggles and it’s an appropriate thing for you to have your own life and struggles outside of your work, which is helping people. It’s an appropriate thing, Quinn.

Quin Marilyn Rich (14:17)

Thank you, that means a lot.

Lily (14:20)

Yeah.

Quin Marilyn Rich (14:21)

true,

it’s true. It’s like, you know, I see couples clients, know, like couples therapy clients, and I’m able to help them pretty well. I know a lot about attachment. Why on earth can I not find a healthy partner? You know, it’s like, it’s a little, it’s a little so, you know, it’s like, it’s a good thing there’s that like wall of no disclosure, because if I tell my couples clients that they’re gonna be like, you don’t know anything about relationships.

Lily (14:34)

Yeah. Well.

I felt the same way when I was like helping people in my like late 20s who were in their 40s. You know, I join you, you know, I had moments of self doubt of like, am I to? And then, you know, I really had to do the internal work of this is not about me. This is about me helping them. And I have the skills and tools and information to help them, even if I’m younger.

than they are. So I think that in that way, I had to question like, why do I think that my age is going to disqualify me from being helpful or transformative? Very similarly, I need you to come with me and start to lovingly question your assumptions about what it means that you have not been in a relationship that has lasted a year.

It’s as, Quinn, I swear to God, it’s as neutral to me as age.

Quin Marilyn Rich (15:47)

Yeah.

Lily (15:51)

I’m like, you haven’t been in a relationship that’s lasted a year yet? U-kay.

Quin Marilyn Rich (15:51)

It just is.

Lily (15:58)

People have judged you for it in the past. Good thing they’re not the right people for you. I just see it as, I have the privilege of not being in your story to view it more neutrally. Not that I wouldn’t want to be in your story, but I think like I have the privilege of having a neutral sort of 10,000 foot view. And I’m like, okay. You just haven’t been in a relationship that’s lasted longer than a year yet.

So what are we gonna do next? How’s this landing for you?

Quin Marilyn Rich (16:25)

think it’s right. mean, it’s it’s an odd in the scheme of things. It’s an odd thing. I don’t judge people necessarily by their relationship history. If I see anything that’s like that doesn’t feel safe. That’s a different discussion. But like, generally, I’m like that I’ve really, as long as you’re emotionally present for our connection, I’d like as long as you have like some kind of awareness or understanding of your history, like I don’t really care.

It’s just one of many things I’m mindful of. It’s hard. You feel very visible.

having this many marginalized identities and you put yourself out there. Plus having trauma plus like like I wasn’t like I wasn’t whatever is it conventionally attractive whatever that means until I until I you know got older and so I think sort of always second guessing myself was like is this person actually attracted to me do I have to like close the gap?

Lily (17:00)

Hmm.

Hmm.

What do you mean?

Quin Marilyn Rich (17:19)

Well, I mean, I think we can we can talk about I was I was a larger child. And I mean, I guess I guess kind of like the elephant in the room is I guess we just have to I am transgender. And part of that is right. I’m not.

out about that for safety reasons also because I think people make a lot of insane assumptions about what you do or don’t want based on that. For example, I am not comfortable dating other transgender women, but that is almost exclusively who responds to me. think there’s a lot of assumptions like people almost use it like an automatic filter. They don’t read the rest of your profile.

Lily (17:38)

Yeah.

Huh.

Quin Marilyn Rich (17:51)

And so I feel kind of weird about that. But the point being is that I feel like that sense of like, there’s some baggage there. I have a trauma history, I have a sort of messy dating history, I have all these parts of my identity. And so now I’m in a position of essentially having to I don’t even get to like, like I may or may not be attracted to this person. But to even get my foot in the door, I kind of have to jump over like all of this stuff that’s true about me.

And it’s hard because sometimes it’s just the shame in my head and sometimes it’s like, yeah, actually people do judge you for that stuff. And so it’s hard to figure out which way is up when you’re dealing with that.

Lily (18:22)

Yeah.

my God, for sure. And I make no claim to be an expert in your lived experience, especially as a cisgender woman. I just wanna say thank you for sharing and feeling comfortable enough to share. And I also don’t want any of this coaching to feel invalidating of your lived experience and the transphobia.

that you have experienced in the dating worlds and beyond.

Quin Marilyn Rich (18:54)

Well, you know, it’s interesting. It’s like, I almost it’s like almost like that’s the label that I put on it. It’s like things aren’t working. But it’s not like I get the explicit message from people that we don’t like you because you are trans. It’s like it’s like it’s kind of like, I’ve always had this issue with like social interaction. And maybe it’s due to neurodivergence. Maybe it’s due to the particular way I embody enthusiasm. People have called me intense a lot. And so people kind of pull back.

Lily (19:00)

Yeah.

Quin Marilyn Rich (19:19)

And like, I’m not really sure what it is you don’t like. Am I too much right now? Is it my trans stuff? Am I not hot enough? Am I not like young enough? Is it that I have this dating history? Is it that I’m trying too hard to get you to like me? And so that tends to be the mindset in which any in any setting. So it’s not necessarily that it’s that stuff that I’m getting the message on. It’s just that if that is like, I don’t know what’s happening right now. I don’t understand why this interaction is not working. And so it’s just something I can go to and like, I guess it’s that thing.

Lily (19:42)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that’s super common for any marginalized person with any marginalized identity to sort of in the lack of clarity assume it’s because of X. So give me an example. I wanna ground and like, give me an example of this happening. Let’s say you’re having a social interaction or a dating interaction and someone’s pulling away. Do you have something in mind?

Quin Marilyn Rich (20:13)

It’s so weird how it happens. know, one example would be ⁓ there was this person that I matched with on a dating app and then we actually met up in person.

at like a lesbian mixer, ⁓ which just happened to like, before we could schedule a date, we met up there. They made a person point to say hello to me, proceeded to ignore me the rest of the evening, and then proceeded to like, reiterate that we had met when they ran into me because they work at like a local coffee shop I go to. And I’m like, this is so weird. Like, clearly you, you, you don’t like something about me.

but I also kind of, you also seem to like something about me, so I don’t know what to do with that. It’s like, was I too much for you? I get a lot of weird interactions like that. Another example would be my most recent ex. Really like intense connection right at the beginning.

had a lot of space for my feelings at the beginning and then as the relationship went on it was like she like was overwhelmed by me and started pulling back more and more emotionally and I was so confused because I was like I thought I was safe here I guess I was too much again and so then this all this adds up and the message you get is like there’s something about you that’s a little too much for people and nobody really wants to say what it is so it could be anything

Lily (21:24)

Yeah.

Huh. Huh.

How are you feeling now as you share this?

Quin Marilyn Rich (21:39)

I kind of feel embarrassed, you know, it’s like every setting you go into, it’s like, you know, if you are the common factor, is what they always say, if you are the common factor, it must be you, that’s causing people to pull away.

Lily (21:42)

Hmm.

Quin Marilyn Rich (21:54)

And I think there’s some truth in that. also feel kind of powerless. It feels almost like fate at this point, right? I’ve worked on my anxious attachment. I’ve worked on my communication skills. I’ve worked on my emotional reactivity and my self-regulation. I’ve worked on my trauma. I’ve worked on my awareness. I’ve worked on like, you know, perspective taking, like whatever the skills that one might ostensibly assigned to this are. It seems like I get really, really good at communication. And then I keep meeting people who

somehow can’t communicate with me like what it is that they need or what their feelings are, what their boundaries are. And so, yeah.

Lily (22:30)

Well, let’s pause there.

Why is that your problem?

Quin Marilyn Rich (22:36)

It feels like I’m almost destined. Like that’s just whatever. Like that’s the thing with my last relationship. Like how to good communication at first and then it broke down.

And I, it almost feels like fate at this point. Like every relationship I’ve been in, I’m trying really hard to communicate, to have my feelings heard, to have my needs met. And my partner either will shut down or will stonewall or will get defensive or will disappear or will tell me I’m too much in different ways. And sometimes I can say, yeah, that’s them. But the fact that it keeps happening, it feels almost like whatever relationship I get into, whoever I date, the same dynamics just going to play. feels like fate at this point.

Lily (22:47)

Yeah.

I got you. I just want to hold space for that feeling. And when this comes up, I sense that there might be like a spiral that happens.

Quin Marilyn Rich (23:25)

yeah, I mean, it’s kind of hard not to because again, I think a lot of people want to attribute this to anxious attachment, but the way I feel in my brain is like, if I know what’s happening, I’m an incredibly reasonable, balanced person. If I don’t know what’s happening, if I can’t, like not the fact that you want distance, you want space, but just that I don’t know what is happening.

Lily (23:39)

⁓

Uh-huh.

Quin Marilyn Rich (23:46)

And in so many of these relationships, there’s a huge barrier of uncertainty. When you’re dating someone for the first, there’s a huge barrier of uncertainty. And there’s kind of like, it’s like, it’d be one thing if I could like, okay, I can troubleshoot, I can take the lesson, I can do better next time. You know, yeah, that L is on me, and here’s why. Like that feels, that feels kind of like controllable. When there’s just uncertainty, and there’s no explanation for the confusing behavior, that’s, that’s where the spiral starts. ⁓

Lily (23:50)

That’s right. Yeah.

Yeah.

So you have done all this work on yourself. You have gone to therapy. You have really worked on a lot of these pieces to feel more resourced and more agency in your day-to-day life. That’s what I’m hearing. Good job. Also, you’re not done cooking. None of us are. You’re not done figuring things out. That’s why we’re talking.

I hear that the gap right now is not that, let’s figure out what’s broken about you to fix so that you can attract a relationship. What I’m hearing is you, like so many people, struggle with emotional safety in the face of uncertainty.

Quin Marilyn Rich (24:57)

100%. my God.

Lily (25:01)

So that’s a skill that I hear because of the old neural pathways, because of your past experience, because of really well-learned safety behaviors.

your brain has attributed your lack of success in your dating life thus far to fate.

Quin Marilyn Rich (25:26)

Or it’s my fault, right? One of those two things.

Lily (25:27)

or it’s your fault

and neither of the stories is actually serving you. you, you know, like, we don’t know what’s gonna happen, but I can, you you will have many more years of living on this planet. And I would hate for you to cast yourself in the role of the problem.

Quin Marilyn Rich (25:32)

No.

It’s interesting, right? Because, like, as you say this, like, I came in thinking like, yeah, she’s gonna tell me that I need to work on my anxious attachment, she’s gonna tell me that I need to work on my social anxiety and my confidence, she’s gonna… maybe… Maybe Quinn is not the complete problem. Maybe she’s in a hard situation.

Lily (26:09)

Maybe, yeah, maybe

quiz been through a lot and maybe you have like so many people cast yourself in the role of the problem in order to, you know, like protect yourself from the vulnerability of uncertainty.

Quin Marilyn Rich (26:25)

You know, it’s really interesting that you say that that feels implicitly right. I think, you know, it’s it’s it’s hard, right? Like, you can’t really rush that kind of certainty in a relationship. You shouldn’t. ⁓ I think that you can look at a lot of my relationships and say,

Lily (26:39)

Correct?

Quin Marilyn Rich (26:44)

there was like, like a sense that this person liked me or there was an intensity, guess we could call that love bombing or was like mutual love bombing and like we just sort of jumped into it. ⁓ And

Lily (26:54)

Yeah, very lesbian of you.

Quin Marilyn Rich (26:56)

Yes, yeah, very autistic lesbian in particular, like, my god. And so I think, you know, looking at it from the perspective of like, yeah, like, that is this, it’s not just like, this was a great person. It’s like, this was a strategy to manage uncertainty. Like, you take the option that’s available to you, and you cling on to it for dear life. ⁓ And you don’t maybe listen to those questions that you have about whether this works for you or not.

Lily (26:59)

Mmm

Hmm, right.

Right?

And I really in this conversation as much as possible, I want you to own your story with eye language. I’ll speak because I hear there’s an opportunity here for you to really reshape your identity as the main character.

It’s very common to use you language. I’ve heard you do it a couple of times. It’s normal. It can be a safety mechanism to hold yourself in a belonging, in an idea of belonging of like, you know, how everyone is or you know how, and the danger is that you cast yourself in an assumed role in an assumed collective that may or may not serve you or your growth.

Quin Marilyn Rich (28:06)

One is also like it’s part of a pattern in my dating life of like erasing anything that makes me unique or stand out because it’s like it’s like it’s like a problem, right? The fact that like, I don’t know, like the things that I’m interested in are kind of like, not even nerdy, right? Like not like sci fi or whatever, theoretical. I like a lot of like

Lily (28:13)

There you are, yeah.

you

Quin Marilyn Rich (28:31)

attachment theory. like internal family systems. Like, yeah, there’s a reason why I’m a therapist. This stuff is cool. I like psychology. Really like a very intellectual nerd. And like, that one is people ask what my hobbies are. I’m like, I don’t know. I like the Enneagram. Right? Like,

Lily (28:33)

Yeah, you’re a nerd and I love it.

What number are you?

Quin Marilyn Rich (28:48)

⁓ I am somewhere between a four and a two. I’m beginning to think the two is a protective set of behaviors on top of the four, which would make more sense for me. ⁓ I think, ⁓ love a three, love a three.

Lily (28:54)

interesting. Interesting. Interesting. I’m a three.

But I think that that’s pretty cool, Quinn.

Quin Marilyn Rich (29:04)

Yeah. What? No, go ahead.

Lily (29:06)

Go ahead.

⁓ So anyway, use as much as possible, I’m gonna hold you to that brave space call in of like, speak from the eye, own your experience in this conversation, because I think some power is gonna be found in that practice. And I’ll speak from my own experience as well, right? I was in a romantic relationship with somebody, I wrote about it in my book. It was very formative for me with this guy.

who liked me and I felt so deeply insecure and broken in so many ways and yet nobody would have known. Like I was living, I felt so secure in other ways and that’s because we can hold multitudes as humans. But what’s coming up for you? I see something in your.

Quin Marilyn Rich (29:52)

Well,

no, I just I really wanted to just say that when I read or I guess listen to that anecdote in your book, I was like, because I was on one of the breakups that we had in the last relationship, I was thinking like, wow, this feels incredibly familiar. Like, I feel like this person gets me because she’s been in the kind of crazy dynamic I’m in right now. Right.

Lily (30:05)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah, everybody’s different, every dynamic is different. However, I do think there’s a similarity between, you know, stories when the core of the issue is, I believe that I’m too much and that nobody’s ever gonna wanna be with me. And this person wants to be with me. So, yahoo, it’s a win. Even if they do not meet my emotional needs, even if they judge me as too much, I mean like,

trying on my bathroom floor, my apartment floor by myself, like begging him to want to go on a date with me. really, you know, and there was one moment where, and we were open when I didn’t want to be, I sort of had forced myself to be Polly because I thought it was a, in his perspective, like a higher state of being.

Quin Marilyn Rich (31:08)

It’s a very important detail because that’s part of why I resonated with your story. And it is so hard in the contemporary queer community, especially in the dating apps. Like if you are monogamous like me, it’s like, ⁓ like the people I am attracted to all want polyamory. Okay, so do I settle for people that I don’t feel a connection with? And that’s the spark versus the essence thing. Or do I like try to date people who are telling me they they already tell me out of the gate, they do not want one on one in a relationship like that also

Lily (31:38)

Yeah.

Quin Marilyn Rich (31:38)

like

a bad option. It’s very hard to not compromise on that. Yeah.

Lily (31:41)

Well, we need to get into that. I’m gonna write

that down in a big note, hold on. Big note, compromise. My desk is full of sticky notes with notes for you. So compromise, Polly, great. I wanna say when I, just to.

Quin Marilyn Rich (31:52)

I have ADHD too, girl, I love it.

Lily (32:04)

On this podcast, always think about like, how much do I wanna share of this, right? Like, what do I wanna say? And I think it feels resonant to say like, there was one time where he told me like, I’m gonna go spend a weekend with my ex.

And I stayed with him for months after. I called my best friend at the time and I said, this feels weird, right? But I’m asking for too much because I decided to be Polly, right? So it does. And she basically like put it on the line for me. She was like, I, as your friend can no longer listen to you talk about this level of settling and I’m not willing to stand idly by. And we didn’t talk for months, me and that friend.

That’s how bought in I was to this idea that I am the person that doesn’t get to have preferences.

Quin Marilyn Rich (33:01)

my god, Lily, I resonate with that so hard. We were together for… So she had a previous partner that she told me she was like half broken up with, I’m not really sure that dynamic. But long story short, was… I found out she was on the dating apps. She actually told me, I think she kind of like didn’t… It seemed like she kind of didn’t realize this was maybe not something that was great to do. She was on the dating apps for four months into our dynamic and like at no point had planned to communicate this to me. And when I said, hey, that kind of hurts my feelings, she said I had expectations about

the relationship that I didn’t communicate. I was like, I guess. But also, ⁓ she apologized and I forgave her and we continued as we had been.

Lily (33:37)

But then what? What happened then?

And then,

and then that’s understandable. You know, I get from my own lived experience, like I understand how I continued to be with somebody that didn’t make me feel good.

Quin Marilyn Rich (34:00)

Well, I mean, it’s like you.

you get told that you’re reactive, that you’re intense, that you’re, you’re what you want is too much, the kind of closeness you want is too much enough times. And you start to get the sense that like, I should just defer to what the other person is telling me, because I don’t have a sense of my own emotional reactivity in the moment. So it must be that I’m too much, and I’m reacting too strongly. And that if I feel a sense of pain, this was what I remember feeling a lot in that relationship. If I feel a sense of pain, it’s not because she’s doing something wrong. It’s because I have old

Lily (34:14)

Yeah.

Quin Marilyn Rich (34:30)

trauma that I need to work on. And so I’m not, I’m not gonna like there’s not really like a need I can bring to the relationship. So I’m just not going to bring a need to the relationship. And it’s like a self gaslighting after a certain point.

Lily (34:39)

Yeah.

I think so, I think so, especially for folks who have complex trauma, who have been in abusive relationships before, like this is a really common pattern of devaluing your own emotional experience in order to keep the peace or keep the relationship that proves to you, quote unquote, that you are normal enough to have a relationship.

Quin Marilyn Rich (35:12)

Yeah, I mean, like, that person was the evidence that I, like the kind of person that I’ve actually like, physically and emotionally attracted to would actually feel like I’m worthy enough to date them. It was like evidence that a person who was, I mean, given what I just said, I this started to bleed, but a person who’s generally kind to me and generally enjoys my company would want to date me.

that that kind of thing and this is the this is the type versus the essence thing that kind of thing that I’ve always wanted, which is like a best friend who also loves you like that that can be real. That’s what our relationship that was the label I had on our relationship in our head. Was it true? No, I was invested in the story of what it was. But, you know, and so it was hard. It was evidence for me.

Lily (35:49)

Yeah.

Pause there. You just said it. You said, I was invested in the story of what it was. And your brain, I hear, is doing the same thing about what is possible next.

You’re invested in the story of like, either it’s fate or it’s me that’s broken, need to fix it.

Quin Marilyn Rich (36:12)

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, like, it’s something I’ve been thinking about, because when I put myself in these spaces, right,

I’ve been trying to challenge my thinking about that, these spaces where you’re supposed to meet, like, okay, so it’s not the dating app, so where are the cute lesbians who are my age? Okay, so I go to queer bars, as a few around here, I go to events, I try to talk to people at mixers and stuff, and I feel a sense of…

alienation from a lot of these spaces and I guess the story there is like I don’t fit in the queer community there’s something about my being that is like not queer enough not cool enough not

whatever, too fuddy-duddy or too much or too drama, I don’t know. And so I feel almost like a sense of like apology when I walk into these spaces, you know, it’s like, it’s like, yeah, I know I’m here and I know I don’t really fit in, but I hope that some of you will like me. And so I don’t really, I don’t really know, because I’ve had a lot of rough experiences trying to fit into queer community and I don’t really kind of know what to do with that. You know, it’s like, it would be one thing if the neuro

Lily (37:24)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Quin Marilyn Rich (37:34)

typicals and the heterosexuals and the cisgender like it’d be one thing if they didn’t like me ⁓ but this is supposed to be my folks like what the what the heck

Lily (37:43)

Sure. And I wanna be really curious about this because I, know, though I am bi, I didn’t, I’m not a lesbian and I haven’t dated as a lesbian. So I defer to your lived experience here 100%. And I wanna be curious with you. Tell me about your community. Like what is your friendship? What are your friendships look like? Do you have close friends? Tell me about that.

Quin Marilyn Rich (38:08)

I do have close friends. have people. Well, the thing is, is I moved from Missouri to Massachusetts earlier this year. So a lot of this is the problem, right? A lot of in-person community, especially for like, again, queer, neurodivergent folks. It’s like these sort of very curated spaces. I feel like everyone’s in a clique, you know, whatever. So I have friends there. Most of them are back in Missouri. Some of them are up here. The common denominator for a lot of the people that I love, and these are really supportive relationships, is that everyone is busy. Everyone is very, very busy. And so it’s hard.

Lily (38:20)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Quin Marilyn Rich (38:39)

to like like sometimes I will not hear for from one of my friends for like a few weeks a few months not because they don’t care but because like when we get together we always have a great time but like it’s one of those like you meet people quarterly as an adult through friendships I have a lot of friendships like that I have my mom

course. But again, she’s very straight. She’s back in well, I mean, she puts the D in LGBTQ for divorced, but she doesn’t have lived experience as a as a a a queer person. And she’s back in St. Louis. And, you she hasn’t dated in several decades. And so it’s like, I, I don’t really feel like she’s a good source of relationship advice. And so it I have a few friends that I see sporadically.

Lily (39:12)

Yeah.

Quin Marilyn Rich (39:18)

I was thinking about this when you were talking about you need to have your, your, your, your wing person, your, your, your, your mastermind. And I’m like, well, I have people I can talk to. And some of them, especially during my last relationship, are very helpful when I could get in touch with them. But you know, it’s hard, right? It’s hard to have like regular, regular, regular time with these people. And, you know, the other thought is, ⁓ you know,

know, like the spaces that I do and have it regularly. Work, would not discuss this with any of my colleagues just because I don’t want to cross that boundary, but improv classes. I don’t really feel like that any of those folks have the kind of maybe perspective.

on what I’ve been through. feel like it’s like I had to switch to an improv school, so like I don’t feel like I know those folks well enough yet. And so it’s hard to find your regular friend group who you can consult about these things. ⁓ End of July.

Lily (40:07)

Yeah.

When did you move?

end of July. Okay, it’s been like six-ish months. Congrats on the move.

Quin Marilyn Rich (40:20)

Thank you. Me and the poodle up here.

Lily (40:23)

And did, poodle or miniature?

Quin Marilyn Rich (40:26)

standard poodle. She’s a purebred, got her from the Humane Society. Nicolette.

Lily (40:29)

⁓

my god, standard poodles are so beautiful and gorgeous.

Quin Marilyn Rich (40:34)

and crazy just like her mama. Beautiful and crazy.

Lily (40:38)

Okay,

so I want you to really engage your self-compassion muscles right now, okay? Do you know what that means when I say it and what does it mean to you? Tell me.

Quin Marilyn Rich (40:51)

well, I’m an IFS therapist, so I would say I would look at that part of me that’s struggling right now. And I would meet it with self energy and meet it with wow, I feel deeply for you. And I see that you’re having a hard time right now. I see how hard you’re trying to, to do this, this, this job to help me, you know, where you’re trying to fit in or trying to explain the situation or trying to like, carry the weight of the shame.

Lily (41:12)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, of course I’m struggling with this.

makes total sense why I would be struggling with this.

Quin Marilyn Rich (41:28)

Yeah, I mean, I think that’s the factor I didn’t consider. I had to like restart my whole social network. It’s not like I have… Yeah, I didn’t have like, I don’t have like friends up here that I can like, hey, do you know someone? like, hey, let’s go to this event together. Like, I’m going to these events on my own. ⁓ And, you know.

Lily (41:34)

That’s what I’m saying. Yes.

Yeah.

Moving is another

aspect. And it’s so interesting that you didn’t mention the moving in the list of the reasons why it’s hard.

Quin Marilyn Rich (41:55)

You know, I didn’t even think about that. mean, that’s that is really like, that is the thing I’ve heard is that it’s not just the queer community up here that’s cliquey. It’s like all of the locals. I’m from the Midwest, right? And like, yeah, there’s a lot of problems with Midwest, but in St. Louis, right, especially in the more queer spaces, like people are friendly, they want to talk to you, they’re open to making friends up here. It’s like people are like behind a wall. And I’m not really sure.

Lily (42:18)

more reserved to you.

Quin Marilyn Rich (42:20)

Yeah, like it’s hard, because like my usual cues of safety that like I would pick up on as a neurodivergent person, like this person wants to talk, this person is friendly, like I can’t… It seems like people won’t break the ice in that way up here, and I don’t… I don’t know how to do that.

Lily (42:35)

Do you mind sharing where in Massachusetts or would you rather not share that? Western Mass.

Quin Marilyn Rich (42:38)

I’m in Western Massachusetts. It’s

called the Pioneer Valley. It’s a pretty famously queer lesbian space. There’s like five colleges in this area.

Lily (42:48)

Yeah,

yeah. So, okay. Yeah, self-compassion would say, of course, because it’s the dead of winter, it’s a particularly difficult, cold winter outside. I moved to a new place. This is a new culture for me. I am navigating both professionally transitioning to a new space and socially.

Of course, this is gonna take a little time to feel acclimated.

Quin Marilyn Rich (43:20)

Yes, yes. And just like also like, find my niche, find my people, right? Like, you know, I’m not a big, like the kinds of spaces I’m expected to socialize in, or I guess that I expect myself to socialize in, are like queer bars, or like mixers or whatever, that’s never been how I’ve made friends, that’s never how I socialize. I don’t think just for lack of confidence, it’s sensorially overwhelming, right? There’s a lot of unspoken social rules, you know?

Lily (43:26)

Yeah!

Yeah!

and you get to play the game by your own rules of social connection.

Quin Marilyn Rich (43:53)

Well yeah, mean think if somebody, like you know, I’m thinking about this now, if I’m in one of those spaces and someone’s like, kind of like, weird or mean to me because I went up to talk to them, I’m like, okay, that’s not a person who I would probably, like if that’s their first reaction, probably wouldn’t want to interact with them anyway. It’s not like I did anything wrong per se, it’s just like, that’s just not a person that we’ve got to vibe.

Lily (44:13)

The person, the non-binary person that you met at the mixer who came up to you and said hello and then kind of didn’t talk to you anymore. The automatic story was fill in the blank.

Quin Marilyn Rich (44:23)

I guess like they recognized me, they said hello, and then they saw I was like too much or something. ⁓ Yeah, they didn’t like me. And then I was spiraling off like, what was it they didn’t like?

Lily (44:29)

They didn’t like what they saw, they didn’t like me.

Right, what was it that they didn’t like? must, and then, and that mindset is so like, God, the feeling of anxiety or dread or shame that might’ve come up for you in that. And then if you’re in a shame spiral, that’s like your brain and body literally shutting down to create safety.

Quin Marilyn Rich (45:00)

That feels accurate to what happened. Yeah.

Lily (45:02)

And then

your brain is even more in this default storytelling mode of like, it’s you, it’s you, it’s you, it’s you, it’s you.

Quin Marilyn Rich (45:13)

Well yeah, and now it’s weird every time I go to this coffee shop that I love because I’m like, don’t… I don’t know if this person’s gonna be behind the counter, I don’t know if they’re gonna be weird to me again, like, you know… You know, I feel like I now am doing something wrong going to this coffee shop that I frequented because like, it’s now their space and it’s like, well, I don’t know what to do.

Lily (45:22)

Yeah.

So self-compassion would say what to the circumstance? we’re gonna, this is just high level what we’re doing. We are neutral, we are going to neutralize this circumstance with self-compassion so that you can then start to choose thoughts and a story that actually serves you and your community building and your love life. So first starting with self-compassion, what would self-compassion say about this story that you’re telling yourself?

Quin Marilyn Rich (45:59)

I think like whatever, like we don’t have access to that person’s inner state. So what we know is, is like, this was hurtful to receive. It’s a standard of behavior that, you know, if I’m choosing from a self led place, I would not, I would not choose to interact with people in this way. That was a lot, it was painful, was destabilizing. And now I’m like, I am literally just interacting in a community space that I’ve been in.

for months to get coffee. ⁓ And I don’t need to feel weird about someone else’s weird or inconsistent behavior. Like it doesn’t, you know.

Lily (46:37)

So

let’s first start with, like where we’re going. I think that something that a lot of people do, I’ve done many times, is try to use self-compassion to convince yourself of the opposite of what your brain is serving up.

Quin Marilyn Rich (46:51)

yeah, I do that a lot, don’t I?

Lily (46:53)

So everybody does. And

for example, like when I’m working with a client on desirability for yourself, like finding yourself desirable to others and the automatic thought is, I’m repulsive or people don’t like me inherently or I like, you know, and I say, well, let’s bring self-compassion to that version of you who has automatic thoughts. This person that I was coaching in particular, she was like, okay, well, self-compassion would say I am desirable.

And my job was to slow that person down, slow her down and say, actually, self-compassion is not here to convince you of anything except your normal that hurts. I’m here for you.

Quin Marilyn Rich (47:41)

Well, I mean, in that case, might be something more along the lines of like, the fact that I’m hurt by this is important. ⁓ It’s understandable, right? A lot of this feels like middle school, it feels like high school, it feels like going to college for the first time, it’s like, it makes sense to me that I’m feeling the same kind of fear, the same kind of rejection. I’ve had a lot of like experiences like this before, like, these types of settings, in general, these types of interactions in general, stress me out.

Lily (47:47)

It’s understandable.

Yes.

Yes.

Quin Marilyn Rich (48:11)

separate

from this situation, it’s okay, right? Like these are hard for a lot of people to feel like somebody who liked you enough to match with you and introduce themselves to you, like make a point to like say, hey, it’s me from the dating app. And then to sort of disappear like from the internet like that. think it makes sense why that hurts. It’s the fact that it hurts. The fact that you notice that it hurts is information, you should validate that. And

You know, you’re not crazy for having this emotional reaction. You’re not wrong for having this emotional reaction.

Lily (48:45)

And how does that feel in your body to offer to yourself in this moment?

Quin Marilyn Rich (48:53)

Yeah, I mean, immediately that part of me that’s like freaking out like, fight or flight or like functional freeze mode trying to figure out like, what did I do wrong? Like, what’s wrong here? Like, is this safe? It’s like, no, it’s like, we can just note that that was like, that was weird. That hurts. I don’t have an explanation for it. I know that I didn’t like it.

Lily (49:11)

Yeah,

yeah, for sure. And I think the third and final thing, know, self-compassion is defined by Kristin. Dr. Kristin Neff has three components, the community over isolation, so the belonging piece, I’m not alone in feeling this way, the kindness over judgment, of course, of course I’m feeling this way. It makes sense based on my context, my past, my past hurt, all of that. Third and final thing we need to offer is thoughts, not facts. Mindfulness.

over-identification, which is also another skill. If one of the skills that we’re working on is maybe nothing is like wrong with me that I need to fix necessarily insofar as I’m, of course I’m human and I’m always gonna be healing and growing, but maybe I’m not the problem, maybe I just haven’t met the right people. That’s a skill we’re working on in this session. Another skill is thoughts not facts. Not in a gaslighty,

kind of way, but in a way of like, wow, my brain is making up a lot of automatic stories about this person’s behavior. Oof, that’s tough. Example from my recent past, when it came to making friends, I am practicing making friends in Brooklyn to like have more social connections in this borough that I live.

And I went to a party at my brother’s house. My brother recently moved to Brooklyn. It’s amazing for me. I love him. And he had a couple really cool people over. And one of those really cool people, I thought we had so much in common. We both spoke French. We both loved to swim. We both swim competitively growing up. We both go to the Y in our respective neighborhoods. I was just thinking like, my God, I wanna be friends with you. This is so cool. I came on.

very directly. And I said, and maybe 30 minutes into chatting, 45 minutes into chatting, I would love to, I said, I would love to be friends outside of this party. I know we just met, but would you wanna like go swimming at the Y together sometime and then maybe get lunch? Like that sounds so much fun to me. And like, do you want to exchange numbers? And this person like rejected me to my face, like told me no basically.

and was like, yeah, we can exchange information through your brother. Like basically sort of like putting it off onto, and I immediately went into a shame moment of I came on too strong, I was too intense, I should have played the game of let’s see each other at another party and then exchange Instagram info and then DM and then I didn’t play the game well enough.

I was too direct, I was too awkward and intense, I was too much, that person didn’t want to be friends with me and, whoa, you know?

Quin Marilyn Rich (52:13)

feel a lot of, just a lot of empathy for you, like a lot of like physiological empathy for you, Lily, like holy crap, my god. Almost feel, I feel embarrassed, I feel embarrassed for that person that they would be so bold, right? Like, my god.

Lily (52:13)

What are you thinking?

I mean, same for you.

Well, and truly, like, that’s my work to reinterpret that circumstance in a way that serves me, because it does not ultimately serve me to continue to live in that shame story that I was the problem. Quinn, just like you have so much empathy for me, I have so much empathy for you. The way that you are thinking about me as like, I’m embarrassed for that person.

I feel the same way about the person who sort of ditched you at this mixer. I have the same, right? You are not alone.

Quin Marilyn Rich (53:11)

I it’s true, right? mean, think that’s part, like one of the good things that came out of the Reddit experience is the sort of the recognition that like people of like cisgender and transgender, like straight and queer, like neurotypical and neurodivergent, like people of all racial backgrounds, people of all body sizes, people of all levels of like conventional physical, whatever, right? Like are struggling with dating and making connections right now. it’s like, the odds that this has to do with me specifically being unlovable

are slim to none, probably zero.

Lily (53:46)

I really firmly believe, Quinn, that you have not met the right person or people yet.

Quin Marilyn Rich (53:55)

Yeah, I mean, and that sort of brings me to the piece around the essence based preferences and the versus the type, right? So I will. I mean, this is I think the last relationship was like really, I really in the moment thought that this was my person, she was exactly the kind of person that I’m attracted to, she was.

Lily (54:00)

Let’s talk about a type.

Quin Marilyn Rich (54:14)

very, like had a lot of like on the surface level, I would say we had a lot of very compatible lifestyles. Unlike a lot of my other partners, she was stably employed. She had like a stable living situation. She didn’t have like problems with her family of origin.

her life was quiet and chill. She wasn’t like a big partier. And so was like, okay, so this is like a person who’s like got a compatible lifestyle to me. She seems to be like we have like a good friendship, or at least seemed like a good friendship. I’m very attracted to this person. She seems to care about me a lot. And then like the sort of breakdown was in like the polyamory stuff, the lack of communication, like, okay, so like,

Lily (54:32)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Quin Marilyn Rich (54:55)

Am I attracted to a type of person?

Or am I like actually meeting my sense based preferences? And so then when I go on the dating apps, right, and I’m looking for people, I try to follow like the guidelines of like, I need somebody who’s monogamous, I need somebody who doesn’t want children, I need somebody who is not got a big substance use sort of picture of their life. And then on top of that, want somebody who’s like, goofy, not just like fun, but goofy, like playful, able to be kind of silly and stupid together, right, is ⁓ relationally oriented, like we could call that romantic, but like, you know, it’s

Lily (55:06)

huh.

Uh huh. Uh huh.

Yeah!

fun.

Quin Marilyn Rich (55:27)

like able to like be with big feelings, mine and theirs. Wants to be wants to be in a relationship has the capacity to communicate like isn’t afraid of emotions, right? You know, you know, somebody who, you know, has a sense of like orientation to either personal development or not religion, but spirituality or like social justice, preferably all three. You know, and, you know, somebody who is, you know, somebody who is like,

Lily (55:30)

wants to be in a relationship.

Cool. Yeah. Yeah.

Quin Marilyn Rich (55:54)

pretty like chill in their lifestyle. They’re not like maybe they’re not like a sports person. They’re not like a party person. They’re more like I’m going to sit home and do crafts person. I’m going to like maybe go on like a nature hike person, right? It’s like I look up those people. I try to match with those people.

⁓ And it seems like I’m stuck in a loop because then I meet those people and then it’s a similar version of I either I had one date with such a type of person and The first date went great. She was really excited and then she messaged me like a few days later as we’re getting close to the second date and said I didn’t feel the spark I was needing and I want to cancel the second date. I’m like I’ve got one. I have no idea what happened ⁓ No, thank God no, it’s a different person

Lily (56:17)

I saw this.

Is this the same person who,

but is it the same person you mentioned in your application? I’m just looking who was like, what did she say? Weren’t far enough along their healing process to date yet?

Quin Marilyn Rich (56:47)

no, that was a different person. so then it was like, was like a yet another, like a same, same thing, monogamous, quiet, kind of nerdy, maybe a little more introverted, but like goofy, playful, like it’s, one-on-one interaction, we were getting along pretty well, we had a nice date, we were gonna plan the second date and then messaged me that. ⁓ And it was, was, was weird. It was like, well, I’m asking the disqualifying questions. I’m like, I’m noticing how I feel, not just how, whether I like them or not. And you know, like, I’m like doing all this stuff.

Lily (56:48)

Gotcha.

Yeah.

Quin Marilyn Rich (57:16)

And then I’m still like, people are still doing that. And it’s hard, like, I guess your brain jumps in and is like, well, it must be your fault. Must have not looked hard enough. I don’t know.

Lily (57:19)

Yeah.

And what I’m hearing is that’s a really normal, like automatic interpretation based on your past circumstances. Totally get that. Self-compassion, self-compassion, self-compassion. Drench it with self-compassion. If it were gravy, it would go on top of that entire plate. Okay? It needs to drench. You need to practice making self-compassion the default. And that is not to say that self-compassion means…

I’m always right about everything and I never make a mistake and la la la la la. It means in the face of my humanity, I believe the best of myself and I’m willing to grow.

Quin Marilyn Rich (58:03)

Yeah.

Lily (58:06)

So go ahead, what’s coming up for you?

Quin Marilyn Rich (58:08)

Well, I just like, and the thing is, is like, I even sit with that, even for a second, it’s like, what, what possible lesson would you even take from this where you are at fault in those situations? Like what, what, like, you don’t have, like, what information would you possibly draw on?

Lily (58:19)

Right.

Well, why are you making, let’s use the example of the person who said, I’m realizing I’m not far enough in my healing process yet to date. Why are you responsible for, like, I hear that you’ve met some people who weren’t right for you, who weren’t ready for a relationship, who weren’t into what you were into, who maybe didn’t feel the spark with you, but why would that be your problem?

If you were perfect, I guess the sort of the mindset that I’m hearing is if I were good enough, then people would have chosen to be with me already. Then the right person would have found me already, is that?

Quin Marilyn Rich (59:01)

I think that’s part of it. I think the other part, and this goes back to that first thing we were talking about trusting myself, is like, well, I was really excited about this person. I guess I got too excited, and I either drove them away, or it was stupid of me to get excited about something that hadn’t materialized yet. And so I sort of get in a cycle of where I’m like, well, now I don’t trust what I’m attracted to. I don’t trust my sense of like attraction and repulsion, because it’s it’s clearly, clearly my picker is broken. People have said like, okay, the kinds of people I either attract or I’m attracted

to do? Can’t trust my judgment on that.

Lily (59:33)

Okay, the only, from what I am hearing, from what I’m hearing, what I’m gathering, what I’m taking copious notes about, what I’m looking at in your application, what I’m hearing from you in a live conversation, is that your picker might be off because it has been socialized to force yourself into scenarios where you are the problem.

Quin Marilyn Rich (59:58)

yeah, that sounds about right.

Lily (59:59)

Right? So maybe it’s not like, maybe it’s that I was socialized to think that people that wanted to be, a lot of people struggle with like, what’s wrong with them if they want to be with me.

or if it feels good, like there’s no such thing as feeling good, I have to struggle to, being in a relationship must mean struggle because there’s something wrong with me. That’s where I was anyway.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:00:24)

I think that’s, it’s more like that, right? It’s like, it’s always like, if there is a problem here, if I’m noticing things that don’t quite seem aligned, if I’ve got a gut sense that this isn’t gonna work out for me, or if I’m not feeling something, or if I notice there’s a problem in relationship, or if my feelings get hurt, it’s just a sign that I haven’t done enough work yet. I haven’t, you know, rationalized it yet.

Lily (1:00:42)

Yeah, instead of

It’s not that your picker is broken. It’s that you get to have a picker.

It’s that in the past, you have assumed there’s something too intense about me. And so people, it feels like a struggle to be with me. So things that feel like a struggle are normal.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:01:08)

⁓ wow, that sounds right.

Lily (1:01:11)

Tell me more about that.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:01:13)

you know, I’m just noticing that like the tension is dropping in my body, like I’m feeling like a wave of relief, a wave of self compassion. It’s like, yeah, I mean, it’s like dating is

hard. Not just because you have to, like, overcome all your own insecurities and you have to put yourself out there when it’s scary, but like, interpreting people’s crazy, unclear behavior is hard. Trying to give yourself a sense of safety and certainty in an inherently uncertain process is hard. getting rejected over and over and over again, just because it’s part of the process, not because there’s something wrong with you, is hard. And yeah, I think there’s a part of me that’s, exhausted with, like, just putting in all this effort

Lily (1:01:54)

Yeah.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:01:56)

down this pathway of like, what else do I have to fix about myself? And it’s nice to think about it as maybe it’s just stop thinking of yourself like you’re the problem.

Lily (1:02:08)

think that that would relieve so much cognitive load.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:02:12)

Cognitive load is the word for it. It’s like I think about it so much. It’s just like

Lily (1:02:16)

Yes.

So I really want you to start to reprogram that default by using a tool that, you know, I’m gonna offer a tool, you have tools that you have used before that have probably worked for you in other I like the tool Ack, A-C-K. It’s just an acronym I came up with just to put in my pocket to remind myself, acknowledge, compassion, kind, reframe. So next time you have the thought, the automatic thought,

I’m the problem where you find yourself in a spiral about like, but what did I do wrong or how intense was I that I, but what did like searching the sort of database for like what micro moment did I fuck up and how can I fix it? Catch it, acknowledge it. Hey, okay. There you are default thought that you’re something to fix.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:03:03)

You know, it’s funny to me that, like, I didn’t catch this before, but, like, the… this is the kind of dynamic that I’m setting up for myself as I enter relationships, as I start to, like, no wonder that all of my relationships then feel like I’m walking on eggshells all the time. Because getting into the relationship felt like walking on eggshells.

Lily (1:03:16)

Peace.

Yes, yes, so understandable.

What’s coming up for you?

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:03:25)

Well, it’s just like, it’s even in my last relationship and like, I’ve been like, I go through like periods of idealizing this person. was like, literally told me the first time that we hooked up that could not be in a relationship with somebody she needed to break up with.

And then it was like, okay, so like, yeah, so it was confusing because she’d be like really romantic and then would like say I’m not romantically attracted to you. I can’t date you. I don’t want to I love you, but I don’t want to date you. And then it happened again. Similar thing happened again with another person. And like you start to think like, I guess the problem is, is I developed feelings for these people who were being romantic towards me. But like, I don’t I don’t

Lily (1:03:39)

What?

Yeah.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:04:04)

I just I really just wish I could just have gone back to that version of me that was getting into that relationship with my ex or the situation should person after her and just like girl like, what are you doing? This person is confusing. You are stressed out all of the time. I know they’re really hot. And they’re love bombing you. But is there anything here that feels safe? Is there anything that he’ll hear that feels like you can be yourself and you can express your emotions safely? No. Get out of there, girl.

Lily (1:04:31)

You need to forgive yourself for that. You need to really forgive yourself for that. It’s not serving you to bully her in your brain. Not her your ex, but you her. It’s not serving you to bully yourself thinking about that relationship.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:04:52)

Yeah, I feel like an idiot for getting attached to, ⁓ getting attached to these people. It was like, okay, like, here in my big stupid heart again, like, here we go.

Lily (1:05:02)

It’s sort of like if you had, know that your child free, bright choice, love that choice for you. It’s almost like, let’s think about you having a kid or like you parenting yourself as a child. It’s like you’d have all of this as an adult in that safe adult in that child’s life. You would have all of this context and like understanding of what she’d been through and understanding of what she wants and the hurt that she’d experienced. And when she…

would make a mistake or be with somebody who doesn’t meet her needs. In the face of that, you know, like decision, you would probably say, ⁓ honey, I’m so sorry. You were doing the best you could at the time with what you had. And I’m so sorry that you felt like that was the best there was. I’m so sorry.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:05:56)

reminds me of the IFS, right? Working with your child part is like, I call her little girl, that’s the that’s the heart part that I have that just like gets excited about these relationships. And it’s just it’s like, I am so genuinely enthusiastic about this person and the possibility of a relationship with this person. And then it’s like, almost like they almost treat you like you did something wrong by falling in love with them when they were love bombing you. I’m like, what are you stupid or something? ⁓

Lily (1:06:14)

Yes.

Right, that’s their

work. And I think that the lesson here is

clarity is kind, clarity is bare minimum. If someone, think that you were talking about type versus EBPs, I hear that in the past, because of some confusion or doubt that you deserve what you want, or that you are worthy of what you want, because of that doubt, that maybe in the past you have…

Allow people to be in your life for longer than you would have liked.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:07:06)

Yeah, in a capacity that I didn’t like for longer than I would have liked. think it’s hard because I would have liked my ex to have stayed, but she did not. Like, the reality of situation is that she wasn’t. So I accepted breadcrumbs rather than having nothing. And I think it’s like that doubt, that fear of like, if I let this person go, will I ever have anything as good as these breadcrumbs? ⁓ Which is crazy, because if a client told me that, I’d be like, girl, you can do so much better for yourself. ⁓

Lily (1:07:14)

You would have liked that, yeah.

Yeah.

You can, but

those people are invisible to you right now. And it’s hard to, so what’s happening here is a lack of imagination, not actually a lack of opportunity.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:07:45)

Yeah, I’m noticing as we have this conversation, there’s a sense of space. I’m coming out of that hypervigilance. I’m coming out of that fear based processing. It’s like, ⁓ like, no wonder I’m exhausted. No wonder I’m hypervigilant. No wonder I’ve got all these self blamed cognitions. Like a lot of this is like, like literally the trauma response of dating in a way that doesn’t feel aligned, like where you are forcing yourself into situations that are the same injury over and over and over again.

Lily (1:07:53)

Yeah.

Yep.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:08:13)

and feeling like you should just do that harder and it’s your fault. That’s a traumatizing situation. And once you can step away from it, it starts to feel just more hopeful in your body.

Lily (1:08:19)

correct?

I

want you to use I language in that, say that sentence again.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:08:29)

As I step away from it, it feels more hopeful in my body. Ooh, a little bit of empowerment there. I like that.

Lily (1:08:38)

It’s pretty magical. And what you are doing for yourself is brilliant right now. am, do you hear how I’m doing some work, but I’m doing very little here. All I’m doing is inviting you in to a different room. Like I’m literally just, we’re taking all, know, I think of either or brain as maybe what black and white thinking is what you were stuck in before our session, perhaps.

Either it’s fate or I’m broken. Either I’m never gonna find somebody because I would have found them by now, or I need to give up because it’s impossible, either or brain. It’s like being in a cramped studio apartment in a dirty building where there’s no amount of scrubbing on the outside of those windows, like Midtown Manhattan, I think of it. Like there’s no amount of scrubbing on the outside of those windows that removes the grime. there’s like a hoarder nest in this apartment. you’re trapped in this apartment. It’s either or thinking.

And you want, what’s so stressful about that is that you want something, in the words of Mary Oliver, in this one wild and precious life. So you want something that’s so stressful, but you perceive that there’s all this evidence around you in the form of like newspapers stacked up one after another with all articles saying, see how you’re broken? See how you’re not enough? See how it’s not gonna work out? You’re in this, you know, apartment that is so tiny. And what we’re doing in our time together.

is I’m coming into the apartment with you. I’m just saying, okay, let’s pack up everything in this apartment. Put it in a moving truck, everything. We’re getting it all out, putting it in a moving truck. I’m gonna drive with you. You’re gonna be in the passenger seat. I’m gonna drive with you to the new location, which is an airplane hangar. You’re not gonna live in the airplane hangar, but like it’s a giant, gorgeous, gleaming space with a door open. There’s sunshine and blue sky.

and your old evidence gets to live here. But what you’ll see in this giant space is that there’s so much more space than that evidence takes up. That evidence can still, you still have hurt, you still have past experiences that were shitty and that you wouldn’t wanna repeat, but there’s also so much more room for new experiences, for new data collection. And that’s the both and. Both, I haven’t found what I want yet in my romantic life, and.

I am open to learning something new. I’m open to doing something new. I’m open to meeting new people. The right people for me might just be invisible right now.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:11:18)

It’s really nice to have that space.

Lily (1:11:21)

Welcome.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:11:27)

Thank you, Lily. I feel a lot calmer. Like, there’s the sense of urgency, the sense of hopelessness, the sense of shame is not there. It’s just like, wow, like you just you just had to go through a lot of bullshit to get here. Take the lessons, leave the crap and. You know, if I’m too much, go find less is what I always like to say.

Lily (1:11:52)

Correct. That’s absolutely correct. Look, Quinn, I was with somebody who I had to beg to see me in person once a month.

And I’m awesome. And I was like, I guess I’m too much for you. It’s like, if you are not making enthusiastic time for me, you are not qualified to be in my life.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:12:20)

Yeah, yeah, ⁓ I remember having to like cry and like explain with like rational arguments to my ex like why it hurt when she wouldn’t say I love you back to me and I’m like I’m never gonna date somebody that needs that kind of parenting ever again.

Lily (1:12:40)

Yeah, there you go.

So I think you get to now update your EBPs, your essence-based preferences from a place of this conversation. If I’m a no to parenting someone, if I’m a no to having to tell them logically, like if I have to over explain why I deserve basic, tender love and care, if we are in a romantic relationship, then what am I a yes to?

affection, consistency, enthusiasm.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:13:16)

generosity, like I shouldn’t have to say things perfectly in like a completely regulated state with the right words and beg you multiple times in order for you to hear me. Like give me a freaking break.

Lily (1:13:25)

No.

And I also think for clarity is, clarity is the coolest and the tool here. It’s like, if you’re wondering if you’re coming on to it in a new scenario, if you’re wondering, am I coming off as a little intense or am I like, something off? You can just say like, hey, I love direct communication. I want to know like, if this feels intense for you, let me know. Or if you need a break, let me know. Like, I’ll let you know.

sorry, you know, like I got so excited about our connection and I started talking about Enneagram. I actually don’t know if you’re interested in Enneagram. Like you can, I don’t know what kind of conversations you’re getting into, but you can always ask for clarity or ask them how they’re doing.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:14:09)

No, I think that’s right. think that came from… I dated a lot of people who had like a fawn response. ⁓ And it’s like, I also have a fawn response, but you feel… One, you feel like a bully when you directly communicate with them. And two, you also like… They don’t tell you with their words, you kind of have to guess. And so it’s like, I think I’m unlearning that pattern of like, like an emotionally safe person for me will have the capacity to directly communicate.

Lily (1:14:17)

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Yeah.

And if not in the exact moment, 30 minutes later, the next day, right? Like at all, period. And I think that the right person for you will have done enough emotional work. Sure, you haven’t met them yet. Like I read in your application, there’s a lot of fear that they don’t exist or that like people in your area, X, Y, Z, but you exist, your friends exist.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:14:44)

at all.

Lily (1:15:03)

people like me exist who really resonate with what you’re saying and the work that you’ve done and the interests that you have. And so it bears to reason that like, there are more of us, there are more of you.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:15:15)

If I’m too much, go find less. I love Miss Piggy, by the way. One of my icons. Yeah. Her and Elvira.

Lily (1:15:17)

Period.

I know she’s the best. I think that the

epic and both of those women are coming from, you know, not a perfect, perfectly unbothered place. Cause Miss Piggy will get kind of bothered sometimes, but I do think when it comes to getting what she wants or, you know, interrupting like, like, you know, really like.

interrupting a caper, the crime caper happening in the Grand Mubbit caper anyway. Like she’s jumping into the scenario and being unbothered about like how you react to it. She’s just gonna do what she needs to do. And I do think about going into that coffee shop.

What thought are you going to choose the next time you walk into that coffee shop to really support yourself?

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:16:09)

I know who I am. I know what I’m about. Right? I’m not, I’m not acting out of line with my values right now. Right? I’m not, I’m not interpreting your behavior for you. I’m not reading into your behavior for you. That’s, this is yours. It’s not my responsibility. Right? Just a lot of cunty energy, just like.

Lily (1:16:26)

not your responsibility.

I also think like it might be possible that nothing is wrong.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:16:39)

Yeah, I mean, like, it’s just it’s like, it’s just not a it’s the point blank whether something’s wrong with something’s not it’s not my business. If they have a problem, they can communicate otherwise I can just live. I’m not going to spend all this mental space running 300 cycles a minute trying to figure out what it means. It’s like, it’s not my concern until they make it my concern.

Lily (1:16:54)

Yeah, put that cognitive load down.

100%. How are you feeling now as opposed to the beginning of our session?

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:17:02)

Yeah, I mean, it’s nice. It’s like you closed a bunch of tabs on your computer and it’s running faster now. Not overheating as much.

Lily (1:17:06)

Yay!

I love it. I love it. So what feels like your most beautiful and true next step?

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:17:16)

I’m gonna take a beat with myself and forgive myself for how I showed up in those last couple of relationships, not because I did anything wrong, but because I think I betrayed myself. And then I’m going to look at the current dating scenarios I’m prospectively engaged in, and I’m gonna see like, do I actually have any gut feelings that I haven’t been listening to?

Lily (1:17:38)

Yeah.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:17:38)

that needs something to tell me. And what do they want to tell me about these things? Like, am I settling, or is there actually like, hey, there’s like three or four red flags that you maybe weren’t paying attention to, can you look at them now?

Lily (1:17:42)

I love that.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. You get to want to be monogamous. You get to want to date an amazing, amazing human being who meets your preferences, who makes you feel the way you want to feel, who is enthusiastic about you, who also has been doing their own work to heal and understand themselves enough to have a thoughtful conversation. This is just the beginning.

Quin Marilyn Rich (1:18:12)

Someone I don’t have to case conceptualize. nice Lily, this is great. I’ve really loved speaking with you today. Thanks for making the time.

Lily (1:18:19)

my God, what an honor, Quinn. I can’t wait to hear your update.

Lily (1:18:24)

my goodness, that was such an incredible episode and session. Quin, thank you so much for coming on and allowing yourself to be vulnerable. I do not take it lightly that people feel safe enough to come on the podcast and to share their story. ⁓ And I know that it resonated with so many of you. So if you resonated with this episode, if you took anything away from this episode, DM me on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Quin has shared an update.

about what feels different after this session. And so let’s get into the update.