Cora left an unhealthy marriage, deconstructed her entire evangelical upbringing, bought her first house, and raised two 16-year-olds solo.

Then she met someone really good on Hinge. Who met all of her essence-based preferences.

And she almost talked herself out of it.

Not because he did anything wrong. Because she felt ashamed for wanting partnership after working so hard to become independent.

In this live coaching session on The Feminist Dating Show, I coach Cora through the spiral in real time. We build her an “if this, then that” plan for the anxiety. We upgrade the questions she’s asking herself. And we talk about why “desire is your birthright” (in the words of Dr. Juliana Hauser), not something you have to earn after you’ve suffered enough.

If you have ever felt like wanting love was a betrayal of your hard-won independence, episode 266 is for you.

Work with Lily:

Read Lily’s book: Thank You, More Please

Watch on YouTube: youtube.com/@datebrazen

Follow on TikTok: tiktok.com/@datebrazen

Follow on Instagram: instagram.com/datebrazen

Explore programs + resources: datebrazen.com

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Show transcript:

Lily (00:00)

Hey gorgeous friends, welcome to another episode of the Feminist Dating Show. I’m so excited to bring you this coaching session with Cora. Cora is a badass, she is independent, resilient as hell. She has worked so hard after being raised in an evangelical Christian environment and deconstructing that, going from being married to choosing to leave that relationship. She’s worked so hard to get to the place that she is today.

like many of you, she has ⁓ worked really hard to get to like, I’m good on my own. And she read my book, Thank You More, Please, A Feminist Guide to Breaking Dumb Dating Rules and Finding Love. And she initiated her dating plan. She built a joyful dating strategy with the book. She built her preferences. She did all the things that I recommend. She launched her hinge profile. She asked her friends to be her co-conspirators. And she recently met someone.

So actually when she applied to be on the podcast, to be coached by me, she had not met this person. And then between being chosen for the podcast and then submitting her follow-up form that we ask for all of the guests, she actually met someone really special and it’s actually really good. And this person meets her EBPs, her essence-based preferences, and then the spiral hit. She asks herself questions and we tackle questions in this episode like,

Am I spending my time wrong as a single mom? Should I just wait to date and fall in love until my kids are grown? I have high standards and strong boundaries and I’m over analyzing instead of being present. Is it embarrassing to want partnership after fighting so hard for my independence? How do I stop waiting for the other shoe to drop? So I am really excited to…

let you in on this conversation where we are doing some work together, shifting from fear-based dating to main character energy, where you and Quora get to have joy and boundaries, independence and partnerships, safety and vulnerability. I’m gonna walk Quora through a really simple tool that changes everything. It’s called an if this, then that plan, especially for you. If you feel anxious, it’s gonna help so much.

I’m also gonna help her upgrade the questions that she’s asking herself to get even more clarity to move forward with confidence. And if you want more support like this, as you build the joyful dating life that makes the right relationship inevitable, then you need to get your hands on my book, Thank You More Please, A Feminist Guide to Breaking Dumb Dating Rules and Finding Love. It’s what is sponsoring this episode. It is packed with the exact tools we talk about in this episode, how to stop.

dating from a place of scarcity, how to date with clarity, how to ask for what you want, how to even know what you want, how to trust yourself after every single date and settle proof your love life. So you can grab my book anywhere books are sold. And if you go to datebrazen.com slash book, you can get your hands on a special bonus called the dating life fix, which is the 10 top dating issues that I see every single day and exactly what episodes of my podcast to listen to to solve those issues in 30 minutes or less.

So you can grab the book, any of your books are sold, pop your receipt number into that form at datebrazen.com slash book and get a copy of this Dating Life Fix PDF bonus, as well as the book. Okay, this episode of the Quora is so good, I cannot wait for you to hear it. So let’s get into it.

Lily (04:12)

Hello, Cora. Welcome to the show.

Cora Anne McMichael (04:15)

Thank you, Lily. I am so excited.

Lily (04:18)

I’m so excited too. So we’re going to get into it. I can’t wait to coach your face off. Before we get started, is there anything that feels important for me to know about you? I’ve read your application, I’ve read your follow-up, but what would feel important to know about you if I didn’t know anything about you?

Cora Anne McMichael (04:37)

guess I feel hyper independent and super resilient and I just crave joy. Like I just, I love having fun like that. I love that.

Lily (04:46)

Hmm.

Yeah,

and so what is your desire for this session? Like we walk away after this time together and you say, whoa, that was successful. What does that look like?

Cora Anne McMichael (05:01)

I think it would be moving in to maintaining a sort of main character energy in all sorts of relationships. I’ve listened to your podcast that maybe we’re more about how some of your clients use main character energy in their careers and ⁓

Lily (05:25)

Mm-hmm.

Cora Anne McMichael (05:27)

I’d like to get there.

Lily (05:29)

Okay, I also know that you have met somebody. So when you applied to have this session, had you met this person yet? my God, so then when we sent the follow-up form, we like said, okay, great, we’re doing this, let’s get you on the podcast, let’s get you coached. You put in your follow-up form, my God, I met somebody, tell me a little bit about that.

Cora Anne McMichael (05:32)

Yes, yes.

Yeah. No.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so I did the dating and so for 100 days I didn’t date but I did practice some rejection like

flirting and winking and in the meantime because I hate rejection like I’ve lived in New York and LA and I was friends with people who were trying to make it in the business and I thought how can they do it like I don’t have that in me I need to always perform in a way that I’m not going to be rejected or not risk rejection so that was really fun

Lily (06:07)

Uh-huh.

Cora Anne McMichael (06:27)

I defined my SSBase preferences and I worked on my qualifying, disqualifying questions and on December 8th I launched a Hinge profile. ⁓

Lily (06:39)

Okay, amazing.

Cora Anne McMichael (06:40)

Yes, yes. And I had written a letter to my closest friends explaining that I was ready to, I was looking for co-conspirators and I wanted to enter the dating world again. Here are my SSB preferences and if you know of somebody, I hope you think of me.

Lily (07:02)

A plus student on all of the things. That’s so great. I’m so glad.

Cora Anne McMichael (07:04)

⁓

I just read such different literature when I did this in my 20s. I love what you have come up with.

Lily (07:20)

Thank you. so before we cut to the listeners, I don’t know what happens next with Cora and this person that she met. But before we jump to that, I want to hear a little bit about your dating and love life history. Where have you been? What have you struggled with? Where, you know, tell me about that.

Cora Anne McMichael (07:38)

Mm-hmm.

Okay, and just stop me if I’m not concise enough. I grew up with a religious background that made ⁓ marriage kind of the key goal. I went to a Bible college and assumed that’s where I would find my partner and of course I wanted to call them. I grew up in Minnesota and yes.

Lily (07:59)

Where did you go to Bible Cut? Like what state?

Minnesota, okay.

Where are you now?

Cora Anne McMichael (08:07)

I live in Georgia, but right outside of Chattanooga, Tennessee. So.

Lily (08:11)

Okay, got

it. And, you know, pausing our session, do you know people in Minnesota? Are they okay?

Cora Anne McMichael (08:18)

Yeah, I mean, I thank you for asking. I have a group of high school friends who all live in the Twin Cities area and they are hyper vigilant like they are doing the three stop drop off of food. They are marching. are. They’re in it and I’m super thankful for them being out there and doing what they’re doing. Yeah, so. I know, I know.

Lily (08:41)

Yeah, absolutely. Thinking of them, you know, and the twin cities and

all of our neighbors, yeah.

Cora Anne McMichael (08:49)

Yeah.

Lily (08:51)

So coming back to you, went to a Bible college, marriage was the goal. Were you dating much? you like, seriously, what was that?

Cora Anne McMichael (08:57)

Mm-hmm.

I guess I almost always

had a boyfriend and was trying to do the things that a good Christian girl would do to land a husband, like enjoying their interests, being flexible.

I went through college without a proposal. And then when I was 27, I had an opportunity to move from Minnesota to New York to teach. And I lived there for a few months and ⁓ was a greeter at my church in New York. And somebody came up to me and he became my husband. So I was 27 when I got married. ⁓

Lily (09:41)

Can

we pause here? You said a sentence that is super interesting that, where are you from from?

Cora Anne McMichael (09:42)

Yeah.

So I grew up on a farm 12 miles from Walnut Grove, know, like Little House on the Ferry. Yes. Yeah.

Lily (09:54)

huh. Wow.

Okay. So small town America, evangelical Christian, sounds like adjacent. I grew up Baptist, Southern Baptist adjacent. And I have to say the sentence that you just said that most people, I don’t know if you caught it, but you said, I went through college without a proposal.

Cora Anne McMichael (09:59)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yes. yeah.

Mm-hmm.

⁓

Oh, yeah. I know. I know. I know. Yes. Oh, yeah.

Lily (10:18)

And that’s so like indicative of that culture of, you know, like MRS degree. I remember

I worked at, remember I worked at church camp one summer in college and I felt like a failure for not meeting a boyfriend at church camp. It’s just a wild culture thing to me now.

Cora Anne McMichael (10:29)

Mm-hmm.

I know it’s so weird. It is wild that they want this

hyper abstinence. And yet I feel like they also are steering kids to these relationships. It’s just predatory and gross. And I’m so thankful to be on the other side of it. And well, I have control of I have two 16 year old children to not let them be a part of something like that. So.

Lily (10:53)

Thanks

Yeah.

Yeah. And I would say that culture of, you’re Christian and you, you know, I think that there’s a difference between expressions of Christianity or any religion, obviously. And so talking about that hyper, you know, conservative ⁓ sort of ⁓ compliance culture that I grew up with, that it sounds like you grew up with is can be really damaging. my God. And I also

Cora Anne McMichael (11:18)

Mm-hmm.

Yes, yeah. Yeah.

Lily (11:33)

wonder when you were 27, did you feel, how did you feel about not being married yet? Did you feel, yeah, go ahead.

Cora Anne McMichael (11:35)

Mm-hmm.

yeah,

no, I mean, I felt like when I went home for a visit, they wondered, is she a lesbian or is she too picky? And I don’t know that they were anybody was thinking those things, but those were the things that I feared. What’s wrong with her?

Lily (12:03)

Well, in that homophobic culture, by the way, what’s wrong with her if she were a lesbian or was too picky? Like both of those things would be not okay, unfortunately.

Cora Anne McMichael (12:05)

Yes.

Yeah, right.

I know. And now I

hope my daughter is one of those two things. yeah, yeah. So, A picky lesbian would be great. Yes.

Lily (12:18)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that’s or both, you know, ⁓ picky and a lesbian I love.

So tell me about meeting your ex husband.

Cora Anne McMichael (12:30)

Okay,

It was a very fast meeting and engagement. We met on November 30th and he proposed to me on March 13th and we got married on April

And things changed really quickly after we got married. But of course there was that rush to get married because we wanted to have sex. You know, you can’t have sex until you get married. And so our courtship was short and intense. And then we remained married for 18 years. ⁓

Lily (12:55)

Mm-hmm.

How would you

characterize that marriage?

Cora Anne McMichael (13:11)

difficult, very lonely and difficult. So yeah, yeah. But I’m like, I love my life now. I’m just, yeah.

Lily (13:18)

Sorry.

That’s awesome.

what was the ending like? Like, did you want to end it? Did he want to end it? Tell me about that.

Cora Anne McMichael (13:27)

Mm.

Cora Anne McMichael (13:33)

Okay, so it just really wasn’t a healthy relationship and I thought for the well-being of me and my children that we should leave.

Lily (13:44)

Yeah. Well, I’m glad that you were able to get out for yourself and for your kids tell me about your deconstruction phase of like, you know, like, obviously you’re here telling me I used to, you know, maybe have these ideas of what a man and a woman should look like in a marriage or I used to have these beliefs about myself.

Cora Anne McMichael (13:51)

Mm-hmm. yeah.

Bye.

Yes.

This is right.

Lily (14:11)

So what did deconstruction look like for you? Yeah, tell me.

Cora Anne McMichael (14:15)

No, that’s good. ⁓ And politically that had started in 2016. And in some ways that was lonely too. But by the time I left my marriage, all aspects of…

Lily (14:22)

Hmm.

Cora Anne McMichael (14:36)

except for the red letters of the Bible where Jesus is actually preaching the gospel about caring, feeding the hungry and housing people. Everything else just became unimportant. so ⁓ not long after I left, I had taken my friend’s kids to a birthday party for her and ⁓ a single dad hit on me.

Lily (14:52)

Yeah.

Cora Anne McMichael (15:02)

And I, it was so unexpected and I thought I could date? I mean, it wasn’t going to date because I have kids to raise. But it was, it did like, it was the first time that I had felt a spark of being desired in a long time. So, ⁓

Lily (15:24)

you

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Cora Anne McMichael (15:32)

So was great. with that newfound independence, I could take my kids to the type of thing. We became active in students demand and moms demand and our little local political group for our county, which does a lot of community service projects. we just continued to build.

community because I don’t have family here. But we have cobbled together our family and we’re really happy. ⁓

Lily (16:10)

Well, I just want to really honor your resilience and ⁓ I want to honor how much you’ve done to live authentically within your values.

Cora Anne McMichael (16:22)

all.

Thank you. Thank you. I mean, I’m a work in progress. Yeah. Yeah.

Lily (16:31)

Like all of us.

But I wonder now, take me through meeting, how did you meet this? So, okay, we did the background. Thank you for sharing. We did the, okay, you told us before sharing the background, okay, you read my book, you’ve listened to some podcast episodes, you had launched your profile, you asked your co-conspirators, you got your EBPs together, you got your qualifying, disqualifying questions together, then what happened?

Cora Anne McMichael (16:52)

Bye.

Okay, so I launched Hinge and one person didn’t just like a photo. You know, you read about guys are, yeah, passive. They like a photo and that’s it, or they say a statement and don’t ask a question. But I had answered the prompt.

Lily (17:12)

Yeah, passive.

Cora Anne McMichael (17:26)

What’s the nicest thing somebody’s done for you lately, I think? And I said, I came home and found my 16-year-old son had cleaned my gutters for me without being asked. I know. And then that my daughter, ⁓ and that my daughter always hypes me up regardless of whether I have bags under my eyes, you know, trying to be funny. And he commented on that and talked about his 16-year-old daughter and asked about.

Lily (17:36)

So nice.

Cora Anne McMichael (17:54)

I think he asked a question about my kids, but maybe it wasn’t right away. But I liked that those were the values that he noticed.

Lily (18:03)

So then what happened? Take me through.

Cora Anne McMichael (18:06)

we began a pretty prolific ⁓ exchange on Hinge and he lives, so I live near Chattanooga, Tennessee and he lives near Atlanta and I know you’re from the area. So it’s like about two hours away. And I have to keep reminding myself, you know, people went to war and wrote letters and it’s not that far away.

Lily (18:25)

Yeah. Yeah.

Cora Anne McMichael (18:28)

But I was within, I think within 10 days, we exchanged phone numbers because Christmas vacation was coming up and we began talking and have similar backgrounds. you know, of course I’m wary of like a trauma bond or, you know, but. And so we met for coffee right before Christmas and.

Lily (18:38)

Right?

Mm-hmm.

Cora Anne McMichael (18:57)

It was just fun and easy and…

I feel like he made me feel the things that I wanted to feel. And yeah. ⁓

Lily (19:09)

I love that. Have

you met up in person since? Yeah.

Cora Anne McMichael (19:13)

Yeah, now

we have decided that we need to try to meet up once a week.

Lily (19:21)

⁓ my god! That’s so fun! Okay.

Cora Anne McMichael (19:26)

It is

so fun. It is so fun and I didn’t know it would be possible. Like, it’s just, yeah.

Lily (19:32)

Yeah.

Say more, what are you thinking?

Cora Anne McMichael (19:39)

Just, like, I just thought that there would be, of course it’s been, what, seven weeks? It’s new.

But I think there’s something to being this age and being able to have some conversations that you wouldn’t have in your 20s. But so my essence-based preferences are I want to feel desired, nurtured, and playful. I just feel like we have a lot to laugh about. And…

He is very good about handling the details of our meetup, which makes me feel nurtured. Yeah. Yes. Yes. my goodness. It’s so hot. It’s yes. Yes.

Lily (20:18)

I love that. Thank you. More pleased to detail oriented men who take the planning. Yeah, so fun.

So in your follow-up, ⁓ you said, if I may read from your follow-up, you said, honestly, the hardest part is letting myself enjoy something healthy without waiting for it to fall apart. Tell me about that. ⁓

Cora Anne McMichael (20:31)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, it feels too good to be true. we are, I’m keeping it a little close to myself right now because…

I don’t want to look foolish. My close friends know what I went through and…

So how do I stay safe but still enjoy this? How do I protect myself and still take a risk, I guess?

Lily (21:15)

I think that’s a great question that we can coach on today. So I think success might look like having a plan to feel emotionally safe and enjoy this connection. So when you said, have high standards, strong boundaries, a lot of emotional awareness now, and sometimes that makes me overanalyze instead of being present.

Cora Anne McMichael (21:18)

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

huh. Yes.

Lily (21:41)

Tell me about what it’s like when you’re drawn out of presence. How often are you going down sort of an overthinking rabbit hole? How often are you dress rehearsing tragedy? Tell me about that.

Cora Anne McMichael (21:45)

Yeah.

that’s a good,

I would say mostly on the times when we’re preparing for our meetup is when I go down those roads, part of it as a full-time single mom.

⁓ I wonder if this is how I should spend my time.

Lily (22:19)

Okay, I want you to give me your questions that you’re asking yourself in your brain, and I promise we’re gonna go somewhere with them, but keep them coming. like, is this how I should spend my time as a single mom? Keep going.

Cora Anne McMichael (22:26)

Uh-huh.

Okay.

Yeah, and should I just wait? I need to launch them, and that’s what I thought I would do. ⁓ And I guess I haven’t touched on,

Lily (22:40)

Okay.

Cora Anne McMichael (22:50)

I had been in kind of a situation ship, like, because I didn’t want to be in something. And then that ended at the end of the summer. And I was so much more sad than I thought I would ever be because I never looked at our future. I never thought this is the person who will attend my children’s weddings with me or bounce my grandchildren on their knee ever. Like it was just like the war widow in the notebook. Like, and there was so much fun and freedom in that.

Lily (23:16)

Yeah, yeah.

Cora Anne McMichael (23:20)

But it made me sad when it ended and it made me realize I love my life. Okay, here’s another question I guess is like I feel a little bit of shame about wanting the partnership after having worked so hard to gain this independence and so.

Lily (23:40)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Cora Anne McMichael (23:44)

there’s

a kind of embarrassment there, especially with that article that came out. Is it embarrassing to have a boyfriend?

Lily (23:52)

Yeah,

mean, ⁓ God, it’s so interesting and complicated the way that we are socialized to think about the desire for partnership, especially because of the complicated nature of gender dynamics, especially considering your evangelical Christian background. this makes total sense. Is there any, I’ve written these questions down, is there anything else that’s on your mind that you wanna?

Cora Anne McMichael (24:06)

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Okay. Okay, let me look

at my little list. Okay.

Lily (24:22)

talk about.

Cora Anne McMichael (24:24)

Okay, I wrote down push and pull between safety and vulnerability. I think we’ve listed them all because, yeah.

Lily (24:29)

Yep, great. So

instead of letting your brain spin, because what generally happens when these questions come up in your brain? What’s the general next step? Do you sit down and journal about it? Do you sort of spiral and sort of think, I don’t want to think about this? Or do you sort of go to, I’m being unreasonable, I just need to enjoy this, I need to be present, you know, what happens?

Cora Anne McMichael (24:50)

Yeah.

Okay, my son is an environmental activist and he’ll hate this, but I go to chat GPT a lot. And I have friends who are therapists and I know they would hate it too, but that’s become my accessible. ⁓ I don’t know, no. Yes. Yeah.

Lily (24:59)

Okay.

Yeah, do you have a therapist? Not right now? Okay, have you ever had a therapist? Okay, got it, great.

⁓ Okay, I wanna be really like, I’m thinking, I think of all of my clients like, I’m getting you to the Olympics, which is like the mountain top of self trust, really juicy relationships, sexy connection, right? All these things. And I’m your coach, I wanna get you there.

Cora Anne McMichael (25:28)

huh.

Okay.

Lily (25:38)

And I wanna be kind of like lovingly hard on you, is that okay?

Cora Anne McMichael (25:41)

Yes, yes. I love feedback. want, I always want to grow. I want to be better.

Lily (25:48)

Okay, ChatGBT is a complicated, amazing resource in some ways. It is a very dangerous tool to be using for your therapy. It is a very dangerous tool to be using for your therapy for many reasons. We don’t know how that data is going to be used against you in the future, number one. I know you know this, but the other thing is that the model is not trained to help you question. You can like…

Cora Anne McMichael (25:50)

Okay.

Yes.

I know, I know, I think about that. Right, yeah.

Lily (26:16)

you know, say, challenge me, give me things to think about, those kind of things. But it’s trained to validate you and get you in a, it can get you in a spiral, right? Of like self-validation in a way that isn’t actually helping you grow. It’s not effectively doing the job that you are assigning to it.

Cora Anne McMichael (26:18)

Right,

Right, for sure.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes, I know. It spits back what I want it to spit back, generally. Yes.

Lily (26:39)

It’s not effective.

Well, and look, if I hadn’t done the same thing, I understand. This is a tool we’re all figuring out how to use, how we want to use it. What are the environmental impacts? What responsibility do we hold? All of these questions we must wrestle with and come to our own conclusions. I’m saying to you, let’s instead of going to chat next time, here’s what I want you to do. I want you to write down the thoughts in your brain, like do a brain dump.

Cora Anne McMichael (26:57)

Mm-hmm.

huh. Yep.

Lily (27:15)

Okay, that’s what we just did. We just brain dumped all your questions and we need to start answering your brain’s questions.

Cora Anne McMichael (27:16)

Mm-hmm.

Lily (27:25)

I also think that it might be who I think it behooves you to do if finances are an issue with therapy or if it’s just a time thing, whatever it is, do a Google for a therapist in your area who does a sliding scale or who does like, like, like make that that is your maintenance mode. I think if you’re gonna.

Cora Anne McMichael (27:36)

Mm-hmm.

Okay. ⁓

Lily (27:48)

Get what I’m saying? If you’re gonna be talking to chat about things, then you’ve got stuff to work on with somebody who will help you grow. So put it on your list. It’s sort of like, I’m trying to help you get it. I’m your ice skating coach, whatever. And I’m like, you gotta see a PT. You know what I’m saying? So let’s, instead of doing chat, you’re gonna write down your questions and we need to answer your brain’s questions with a generous interpretation, okay?

Cora Anne McMichael (27:49)

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That’s all I’m gonna have to say. I’m gonna let…

huh,

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Yes. Okay.

Lily (28:17)

and we’re gonna wrestle with it together. I’m not gonna leave any stone

unturned here. So let’s answer these questions one by one. Is this how I should be spending my time as a single mom? How should you be spending your time as a single mom? What are your assumptions here?

Cora Anne McMichael (28:24)

Okay.

Of course I feel like I need to be available 100 % of the time. mean, there are like, I work a lot, like I’m a teacher, but then because I’m a teacher, I work a lot of extra jobs. And that is so that my kids can pay their sports fees or, you know, have their shoes for their activities and…

And so I feel good about spending my time that way because it is moving them forward.

And so guess that’s why I question it. Is this, is me spending my time this way improving their life?

Lily (29:22)

Okay,

and I think that, we’re, if I’m coaching myself through a hard moment, like let’s say it’s 11 p.m., I generally do terrible self-coaching at night, because I am tired, and when I’m tired or hungry, I come up with like the meanest thoughts about myself. So then I have to remind myself, Lily, you are not in a state to be making these assessments, go to bed, wake up in the morning, do your self-coaching. Just offering that as like,

Cora Anne McMichael (29:47)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Lily (29:51)

Sometimes you won’t feel resourced enough to do this, but right now we are here, we’re together. I hope you’re well fed, I hope you’re well hydrated. Let’s get into it. Olympic athlete, we’re getting into it. Okay, if I heard you say that, this time spent dating this person, helping move my kids forward? You just asked that question. So if I were coaching myself, I would go beneath the surface of that. Okay, well, let’s question that. What is that question implying about?

Cora Anne McMichael (29:53)

Yeah.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Lily (30:21)

my identity and my time spent. What is that assuming all of my time must be spent doing?

Cora Anne McMichael (30:31)

I guess it goes back to availability for my kids. ⁓

Lily (30:33)

availability.

They are 16. Yeah, so then you must ask to go another deeper, go another level deeper. My kids are 16, they’re not four. They’re not nine. They’re not starting middle school. They’re in the solid like adolescent phase, 16, you know, they do need you. They’re not done cooking. And…

Cora Anne McMichael (30:51)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Lily (31:03)

What might it mean to update your mom operating system?

Cora Anne McMichael (31:10)

Mm-hmm.

Lily (31:13)

What does availability look like now that they’re 16 versus when they were 12? It’s changed. So have you thought about how much time, like this is the same if you were to carve out an hour a week for your therapy, you know, or an hour a week for you to work out at the gym. Is that time moving my kids forward? Well, maybe we operate under the assumption that my children will know how much I love them by how much I love myself, which is a Brene Brown quote.

Cora Anne McMichael (31:18)

Right? Right.

Right.

That is true. mean, ⁓ true.

Lily (31:48)

So

let’s go another level deeper. Let’s look at tactically how many hours per week are you spending with your person that you’ve been seeing?

Cora Anne McMichael (31:58)

No less than six because of the distance, so.

Lily (32:02)

So six hours, six-ish hours a week. And when are you making that time?

Cora Anne McMichael (32:04)

Mm-hmm.

weekend evenings.

Lily (32:11)

weekend evenings and then what are your kids doing during those weekend evenings?

Cora Anne McMichael (32:14)

⁓ Sometimes they have friends over sometimes they’re binge watching. They’re being 16 year olds.

Lily (32:20)

⁓ huh. They’re being 16 year olds.

And

what have they said about you going on, do you tell them you’re going on a date? Like, what is that like for you?

Cora Anne McMichael (32:30)

I had, like, I, probably some parents are better about not being as forthcoming, but I don’t know.

how to hide it. Like I’m getting ready, I’m excited, I, you know, so.

Lily (32:46)

Yeah.

I think there’s a developmentally appropriate way to share your excitement without telling them everything.

Cora Anne McMichael (32:55)

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I’m not. Yes. But they know I’m going on a date and with whom I’m going to see, you know, who I’m going to see. so.

Lily (32:56)

Is that what you’re doing, I think? Yeah. So.

Okay, okay.

So every week are you judging yourself for like, shouldn’t be spending my time this way?

Cora Anne McMichael (33:15)

I think every week I question it.

Lily (33:19)

Tell me more about that.

Cora Anne McMichael (33:23)

I’m so close, you know, if I just waited two more years. ⁓

They would, you know, they would.

They don’t miss me when I’m gone, it’s not that. But they probably wouldn’t be in the house. And so if a tree fell on my house while I was gone, it wouldn’t be my fault. They’d be okay, they’d be away in their college dorms. ⁓

Lily (33:50)

Yeah. Well, what, okay,

so six hours a week and are you driving to him? Is he driving to you? you meet in the middle? Okay, I love that you’re meeting in the middle.

Cora Anne McMichael (33:58)

A lot of times we meet in the middle. Yes.

Lily (34:04)

I think we need to come up with an if this then that plan that would help you manage your anxiety around this and help you release some of this like shame.

Cora Anne McMichael (34:07)

Okay.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay.

Lily (34:15)

It’s Saturday night, I have a date with this fella. If my kid needed me, then I would reschedule. I want you to write this out. I said in another episode, it hasn’t come out yet, but I used to struggle with really bad health anxiety. Or I felt that it was impeding my ability to live my life peacefully and to mitigate my health anxiety. Now, sometimes this became.

Cora Anne McMichael (34:21)

Mm-hmm.

reschedule. Yeah. Okay.

Lily (34:44)

Sometimes this became overthinking, but a lot of times it was helpful. had an if this, then that plan in my phone, in my notes app. If I have this symptom, then I will give it this many days before I go to the doctor. If I have a tickle in my throat, then I know from past experience, it probably will turn into nothing or it could, right? I had this data from like collection.

Cora Anne McMichael (34:50)

Uh-huh, okay.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lily (35:09)

If this, then that. And then whenever I would get nervous about getting sick before a big opportunity, I would go to that notes app and be like, okay, Lily, if this, then that. If you have a tickle in your throat, even if you wonder if it’s all in your head, which sometimes happened, you will go get a COVID test and you’ll test yourself. And if you are positive, then you’ll have that information to stay home. And if you’re negative, then you will go to this thing that you have planned, right? If this, then that. If my kid needed me, I would reschedule.

Cora Anne McMichael (35:20)

That’s nice.

Okay.

Yep. Yep.

Lily (35:36)

If I’m feeling like six hours a week is too much, then I will what?

Cora Anne McMichael (35:45)

Be resentful.

Lily (35:46)

Okay, maybe

in the past, but right now we’re really giving you main character energy, like kudos. We’re really stepping into main character energy. If six hours a week feels like a lot, too much, then I call him, I tell him that it feels like too much, and we come up with a plan B.

Cora Anne McMichael (35:57)

⁓ huh.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yep.

Lily (36:09)

If he doesn’t like me asking for something that I need, then I bless and release him.

Cora Anne McMichael (36:11)

Yeah. Right.

Yes. Okay. True.

Lily (36:18)

Right? You’re so much more agency-filled than you think you are here. It’s not either I date or I don’t date before my kids leave. It’s not either I spend six hours or nothing. It’s like, well, that does sound like a lot of time once a week, every week. Maybe you go to every other week. Maybe you do a FaceTime date. Maybe he comes all the way to you.

Cora Anne McMichael (36:22)

Mm-hmm.

Right. Right.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lily (36:45)

Maybe you go all the way to him once a month. I don’t know. Maybe you assign a, I mean, I know your kids are 16, they may not want a sitter, but maybe you have a close friend or you have a play date scheduled at somebody else’s house or during that time or something to where you know an adult would be around. How does this feel?

Cora Anne McMichael (36:48)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Right. ⁓

Right.

It is so logical. Like the progression of if, then.

statements it feels a little bit Well, it certainly feels calming like it feels like well duh Cora ⁓ So it feels comfortable and calming

Lily (37:26)

Yeah.

And I think that the part that doesn’t feel intuitive to so many people, myself included sometimes, is that women and people socialized as women, especially those from conservative cultures, are trained to suffer as a badge of honor and goodness, okay? And so.

Cora Anne McMichael (37:43)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I know, I know, I

hate martyr culture. Like, and I catch myself doing it with my kids and I’m embarrassed that I behave like that in front of them. So, because I don’t want my daughter to be like that, so.

Lily (38:03)

Yeah.

And I think that all you can do as an imperfect person is make repair afterward and acknowledge what happened and acknowledge, you know, how that made your daughter feel or your son feel if that. You know, like, all of us are doing the best we can. Nobody is going to be a perfect parent and nobody is going to be a perfect human that just doesn’t exist. What you can do is acknowledge when you are feeling trapped in your suffering or resentment.

Cora Anne McMichael (38:13)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Lily (38:37)

If you, so I think a much more interesting question or high quality question, if, this how I should spend my time as a single mom? That’s a pretty judgmental question. That’s a very low quality question. A high quality question for the Olympic athlete that you are is, is this how I want to be spending my time as a single mom? Is this an effective use of my time?

Cora Anne McMichael (38:41)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Lily (39:01)

Do I want to be dating this person right now? If yes, then let me figure out how to do this in a way that actually fits better with my life.

Cora Anne McMichael (39:11)

Mm-hmm.

Lily (39:13)

Okay, so let’s move on. And did ChatGBT tell you about the if this then that plan? I don’t think so. So this is why like having human feedback can be helpful. So because ChatGBT is bound by the limits of your brain being able to ask a question. So this is giving you some juice to like ask yourself higher quality questions. Let’s ask this question. Should I just wait to date? I need to launch them. So if that is like V1 version one of the question, what

Cora Anne McMichael (39:17)

No. No. ⁓

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Lily (39:43)

What is beneath that question? What judgment of yourself or what fears?

Cora Anne McMichael (39:50)

I think it stems from the fact that I am the only parent. That I don’t have grandparents close by to pick up the slack. I mean, do have, my kids have adopted grandparents and aunties that should I…

be on a date and something happens, these people are close by and happy to come and help. But again, it’s based in the same judgment of the first question.

Do I deserve this? Because I can’t have so much of that upbringing and…

⁓ And I don’t know if your upbringing was like this, but we don’t deserve anything but hell. mean, like literally that was always like, we couldn’t say the word deserve because yeah, it was because you don’t deserve anything. yeah.

Lily (40:53)

That’s intense, yeah.

Right.

Cora Anne McMichael (41:06)

deconstructed a lot, but those things that are ingrained at, you know, at an age, such an impressionable age, it’s hard to, hard to move on from them. Even like to this day, if I hear a friend doing little treat culture saying, deserve this, in my head, I…

think we don’t deserve it. You know, my first thought is we don’t deserve anything. You know, like, I do not, that’s not a part of my belief system anymore, but of course it’s still in there. Yeah.

Lily (41:36)

⁓ Yeah.

Yeah, totally. Well, I will just validate that the word and the concept of deservedness is really complicated and hairy, both for the religious reasons that you mentioned and that the like, we only deserve hell. Whoa, that’s very, you whoa. And I also think on, you know, on the flip side, like, what is deservedness if I was born, you know, in in a place where

Cora Anne McMichael (41:49)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I know, right?

Right. Exactly.

Lily (42:13)

⁓ I was safer. was, you know, I’m a white woman with a ton of unearned privilege. Did I deserve that? No, we were born into a society that is unjust for so many. ⁓ So deservedness is really complicated. A millionaire has a ton of money because they were born into it. Somebody was born into a family that didn’t have any means.

Cora Anne McMichael (42:20)

Right.

Exactly.

I see.

Right.

⁓

Lily (42:41)

Did that person

Cora Anne McMichael (42:41)

Right.

Lily (42:42)

who had more money deserve to have, no. you know, some parents are super loving, some are not at all. Deservedness is really complicated. And I don’t think that you have to make peace with deservedness. I think a more effective strategy is to think about worthiness.

Cora Anne McMichael (42:44)

That’s good.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I don’t know how your brain works so quickly, Lily. Like, you’re just so clear-minded. Ugh, okay. Okay. Worthiness.

Lily (43:09)

Worthiness. Go ahead.

Well, I think about these things

all the time. I work on this with people all the time. Worthiness is like, I’m worthy of taking up the space that I inhabit on this planet physically in my body. I am worthy, you are too, everyone is. We are worthy of breathing clean air and drinking clean water. We are all worthy of the same…

Cora Anne McMichael (43:22)

All right.

Okay.

I’m sorry

Lily (43:45)

safety ⁓ and care and compassion, my God, and you’re worthy of, and talk about desire. Okay, so there’s the basic stuff of like, we all wanna be safe, fed, housed, we all are worthy of that at a basic human level. Then we have desires. I desire to… ⁓

Cora Anne McMichael (43:59)

Mm-hmm.

Lily (44:09)

have an amazing group of friends, I desire to travel the world, I desire to have a romantic partner that walks alongside me, I desire to have amazing sex, I desire to have, right? And that’s where the religious sort of things can get hairy because especially for women, desire is seen as this like braggadocious self-indulgent.

Cora Anne McMichael (44:17)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Lily (44:31)

you wanting something and getting it take something away from others, which is fundamentally just like untrue. There’s enough of the pie to go around in terms of relationships and care. What I mean by this is like, you know, my colleague and friend, Dr. Julianne Hauser says, desire is our birthright.

Cora Anne McMichael (44:49)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lily (44:51)

We are worthy enough to have desires. And if you have a desire, then you get to, you kind of owe it to yourself to go after it, to be a fully expressed human being. How does that serve your children? Because they will see their mother being a fully expressed human being. It’s similar to if you wanted to be an artist and you had no idea how to start, but you had this desire to paint. So you went and took a

Cora Anne McMichael (45:07)

Yeah.

Lily (45:19)

two hour workshop every weekend on painting and you figured out who would take care of the kids or who would watch over them if something would happen and you went into the, you get to desire to have a partnership. get to desire to just have fun dating and expressing that side of yourself. Desire is your birthright. So I do think shifting away from do I deserve this? Do I not deserve this? I’m worthy of it because I have a desire for it.

Cora Anne McMichael (45:21)

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Right,

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lily (45:49)

How does this feel?

Cora Anne McMichael (45:50)

It feels good and grounding and I’ve heard you say that before, you know, the sires. I’ve heard you quote her before and so.

Yeah, and I love it because everyone that I love, everyone, I don’t care who you are, if I don’t love you, I feel that about them that I want them to have their desires, to have something that sparks interest and passion and warmness and contentment in their heart. So, yeah.

Lily (46:30)

And should I just wait, I need to launch them? To ask that question in a higher quality way, it might sound like what would be the markers of I keep going with this versus the markers of I’m not prioritizing my children like I want to be or I need to be, or I’m not, know, at what point would a romantic relationship that is longer distance

Cora Anne McMichael (46:36)

Mm.

Mmm. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Lily (46:59)

take away

from what I wanna do as a parent versus is this actually taking away from my kids if I’m away for two or three hours on a Saturday after being available to them, you know, if I have a plan in place, if I have, and I’m not a parent, know, to some degree, what do I know? But I’m also coming from a place of like, you get to decide what you wanna, what your standard for parenting is from a,

Cora Anne McMichael (47:06)

Yeah.

Right.

Have a good

Lily (47:28)

place of generosity towards yourself. And if this relationship did start impeding with your ability to support your kids, you would have an if this then that plan.

Cora Anne McMichael (47:41)

Right, true,

Lily (47:45)

So shame wanting partnership after gaining independence. What are you assuming partnership will mean for your independence?

Cora Anne McMichael (47:49)

Mm-hmm.

Well, is, partly everything, like even the physical objects that my kids and I have, have been things that have been really hard-won or lovingly given to us. Like, when we left, we each had a suitcase, my kids had their instruments, and we had the family cat.

Lily (48:12)

Yeah.

Cora Anne McMichael (48:20)

My house is, I bought my first house last July. I look around and almost everything is something, is a treasure from somebody and I’m just so thankful for that. So part of what I’m thinking

Lily (48:24)

Congratulations.

Cora Anne McMichael (48:39)

a lot of people invested in helping me become independent. So I think that’s a little bit of what I’m asking. And now that I’m saying it out loud, maybe it doesn’t make as much sense as it’s been feeling in my heart and in my head. Also, the relationships that have been carved and cultivated. ⁓

in this time and before that leading up to that. Like I’ve made the most of always having followed my ex-husband around. We’ve lived in a lot of different so I just I love our community. ⁓ Would having a partner mean that I have less time to invest in my community that I love so much?

Lily (49:16)

Mm.

And what would a high quality question sound like?

Cora Anne McMichael (49:38)

Well, I guess I feel like we go back to the if then if it is then what are going to do about it? like then you read. like, yes. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Lily (49:45)

then I recalibrate, then I set a boundary, then I make a decision to change something, then I, you know, this is giving

you more credit to have power over your life.

Cora Anne McMichael (49:59)

Mm-hmm, right. Right, and I don’t want to behave like that. I don’t want to behave like I don’t have power because I obviously do. So thank you. Like, yeah.

Lily (50:06)

You obviously do.

And I think, you you get to give yourself the gift of time with this man that you’re seeing. You don’t have to make any moves for the next two years. You don’t have to move in together. You don’t have to change where you live or your kids go to school or… ⁓

Cora Anne McMichael (50:13)

True.

Mm.

Right.

Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Right. Yes.

Lily (50:33)

You don’t need to move him into your space. can, you know, your first courtship was really short. Give

yourself the gift of time to explore this, to have fun, and also to parent your ass off, you know, while also filling your cup as mom and Cora.

Cora Anne McMichael (50:41)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Lily (50:54)

So if this, that, if we get more serious, then I can let him know that I love seeing him. We may even love each other and share that, but I can decide whether or not I want to make any big life moves until after my children are out of the house. And if he didn’t understand that or he felt like, why are you doing that and trying to talk you into something you don’t wanna do, that would be good information.

Cora Anne McMichael (50:57)

Yeah.

Yep.

Thank

Yes, it would. I love data. I love it. So. I know. Yes.

Lily (51:28)

Do you see what we’re doing here? We’re just like, of like slowly looking

at the, it’s sort of like you had a gold, I talk about this idea of when somebody comes to me with a coaching question, it’s sort of like a gold, beautiful gold chain with a tight knot in it. And what people generally try to do, what a lot of people, look, I’ve done this before. I’ve set a boundary that I’m not gonna do this with chat anymore, but that’s what people are doing with chat. Let me try to fix the knot. Let me try to like, and in trying to untangle the knot.

Cora Anne McMichael (51:43)

huh. Yeah.

That’s nice.

Yes.

Lily (51:58)

quickly and without high quality questions, you’re just making it tighter. Whereas what we did is slowly like taking apart the knot, looking at the pieces, getting curious about, wait, what piece might go through there? Okay, let me try that. Okay, that didn’t work. Let me undo. Let me try another angle. That’s what we’re doing here.

Cora Anne McMichael (51:59)

Mm-hmm.

Little head.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. You’re so good at it! Like, I… No, do…

Lily (52:23)

How are we feeling? ⁓

Cora Anne McMichael (52:29)

I feel really reflective. Like this has helped me.

to reflect on this.

in a calm manner without all these…

questions and, you know, like ⁓ not questions but fears to some degree. That might be too strong of a word, but yeah.

Lily (52:55)

Yeah, and I think your best, from my perspective, your next step that I would assign to you is to create your if this, then that plan. And start with your fears, right? I fear I’m gonna lose myself in this relationship. So after each date, I’m going to check in with myself. How am I feeling? What am I doing? You know, I don’t know if you’re using the date feedback system that I talk about in my book, but I would really highly encourage you to use that resource.

to tune in with your dating intuition after every date. If I feel that this amount of time is too much per week, then I ask him for an alternate plan. And I decide what would feel good for me, right? ⁓ If I start getting anxious about the time that I’m spending away from my kids, then I get curious about what assumptions are not serving me.

Cora Anne McMichael (53:34)

Hmm.

Lily (53:53)

about all I am is a mother and I don’t get to have a personal life, like that’s not serving you. Both and, you can also decide like, no, what kind of mother do I wanna be? And how do I wanna show up for my kids? And how do I wanna show up for myself? Here’s what this looks like in this season. I can always revisit what feels good next.

Cora Anne McMichael (54:04)

Yeah.

Lily (54:15)

How does this feel? Good, what’s coming up for you?

Cora Anne McMichael (54:17)

Good, ⁓

Well, I’m worried that I didn’t write it all down right. Yes, yeah.

Lily (54:25)

Well, good thing you’ll have this recording.

Cora Anne McMichael (54:27)

but like validation is coming up. And then I think, why do I need validation? But that’s why I’m here. Like I’m here because I trust you have expertise in that. so.

Lily (54:34)

Ask for what you want.

What kind of validation do you want?

Cora Anne McMichael (54:46)

I just feel it. I feel validated in this process.

Lily (54:49)

good. Great.

Cora Anne McMichael (54:52)

Like, okay, I’m okay. I’m not hurting my children. I am allowed to explore these desires.

Lily (54:54)

You are okay.

And Cora, what if you asked them? They’re 16.

Cora Anne McMichael (55:06)

Yeah, I mean right now they’re cute and they think it’s funny and like my daughter likes to see what I’m gonna wear on a date and so they have not said anything to make me feel yes. Right.

Lily (55:13)

Yeah.

You can ask them, Cory, not to project onto them like, are you all okay that I leave and you need me? No, I would

just say, how does it feel that I, you know, do you ever, you know, do you ever need me in that time? Like, I don’t know, I’m, again, I’m not a parent, I’m not a parent coach. I have friends who I would highly recommend you check out the work of my best friend, ⁓ Megan Saxelby, who is a parent coach for adolescent, for parents of adolescents.

And she has a free like sub stack live every single Friday and you can ask her questions. So like you might even ask like Navigating dating with a with a 16 year old. How would you navigate the communication around? That and how right again high quality questions. How can I check in with them? To see if me stepping away for six hours does create a gap that I don’t want there to be you know, like

Cora Anne McMichael (55:50)

Okay. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

Lily (56:17)

You can ask,

okay, I don’t know the answer to this. As a parent, I’ve never had 16 year olds, I’ve never been dating with 16 year olds. So let me seek out somebody who might have a parenting level answer that would be good and trustworthy. And I can go from there, information gathering, instead of,

Cora Anne McMichael (56:24)

Right. True.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yes.

Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. I love information gathering. I love it. Like, I value it. So.

Lily (56:40)

You know?

Yeah. And I

think always coming back to like, am I feeling the way I want to feel in this new relationship? If yes, if I’m curious, I keep going. If it’s in alignment with my values, with who I want to be, with my time spent as a mom, for my decision about like, this is my decision. You can make a decision as a person, a person. Cora, what is your time look like to pour into your personal life? And this might be.

Cora Anne McMichael (56:55)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Lily (57:15)

a check on that box.

How are you feeling?

Cora Anne McMichael (57:19)

Good, I feel really good, like excited and in control. Not obsessively, but just like, like I can handle this. I’m capable of thinking through things in a clear manner and continuing to make decisions that

Lily (57:22)

Good!

Yes.

Yes.

Cora Anne McMichael (57:44)

will benefit me and my family.

Lily (57:48)

There you go, yeah. And I think you figuring out how to prioritize yourself and your personal life and your love life, your desires, is a really, really cool.

Cora Anne McMichael (57:57)

Mm-hmm.

Lily (58:05)

thing that you’re doing. Like cool isn’t even the word. It’s like, it’s incredibly admirable. It’s especially how you’re going about it. So authentically, so full of your values and full of awareness of your kids and what they need. And also while holding awareness of what you want and need, right? There are so many people that I talk to who say, who make different decisions, right?

Cora Anne McMichael (58:31)

Mm-hmm.

Lily (58:31)

⁓

They decide not to date at all. They decide to go really hard into dating and then they might scale back. They might, you know, there are so many different decisions to make. And I really think you get to give yourself permission to figure out your, this and that plan, and then figure out what do I want to believe about myself here? I am worthy of having desires and I am worthy of getting what I want.

Cora Anne McMichael (58:34)

Yeah.

you. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

I like that. I like that. I think I spent a lot of my life.

learning to want what I have, sort of, you know? And so this feels like a different approach, like proactively seeking something that I want.

Lily (59:04)

Yeah!

There you go. That’s huge. I’m so excited for you.

Cora Anne McMichael (59:22)

I’m excited too. Thank you.

Lily (59:23)

Yeah. ⁓ Okay, so

go create that if this in that plan and send us your update. can’t wait to hear it. Thank you, Cora.

Cora Anne McMichael (59:29)

Okay. All right. Thank

you.

Lily (59:33)

Cora, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I’m so grateful that you came on, that you shared your story. You allowed yourself to be vulnerable, allowed yourself to be seen and supported. That is no small thing. So I’m really grateful. Anyone that comes on this podcast for any reason, I’m always so grateful for their vulnerability and willingness, gameness to go deep with me. So thank you, Cora. I’m also super nosy and I want to hear how Cora is doing after this episode. So let’s get into her follow up.