How to Flirt When You’re Socially Anxious with Flirt Coach Benjamin Camras
Here’s the secret of flirting…
Every single person you’ve ever wanted to talk to — the cute stranger on the subway, the guy at the coffee shop, the woman you keep seeing at the farmers market — is also in their head.
Every. Single. One.
And yet most of us walk around convinced that WE are the only ones who are awkward, anxious, and completely clueless about flirting.
This week on The Feminist Dating Show, I brought in flirt coach @benjamincamras to change that story so you can feel like the confident badass you are while flirting and connecting with new cuties.
In Episode 264, we cover:
→ What flirting actually IS (hint: it’s not what you think)
→ The 4 flirt styles — and how to find yours
→ How to handle rejection without spiraling into a shame tornado
→ What to do when your mind goes completely blank mid-conversation
→ The subway flirt role play you didn’t know you needed
→ How to flirt safely when you hold marginalized identities
→ The one thing to do THIS WEEK to build your flirt muscles
This is not about performing. It’s about becoming your most confident, authentic self — and you already have everything you need.
Follow Benjamin on:
Work with Lily:
Read Lily’s book: Thank You, More Please
Watch on YouTube: youtube.com/@datebrazen
Follow on TikTok: tiktok.com/@datebrazen
Follow on Instagram: instagram.com/datebrazen
Explore programs + resources: datebrazen.com
Show transcript:
Lily Womble (00:37)
so glad that you’re here. Today’s topic is one that I know you’re wondering about, I know you’re anxious about. And ⁓ we are here to offer answers to your flirting questions, to like, how the hell do you flirt, especially if you feel socially anxious, especially if you’ve never done it before. Benjamin Cameras.
is here. Benjamin is a flirt and dating coach sharing his love of flirting and BFE big flirt energy with the world. He is a lifelong introvert and socially anxious member of society and now helps singles and daters flirt with more confidence, clarity and fun. Benjamin helps the flirt community aka the flirties date from a place that allows the values of connection in all forms platonic, romantic and with self.
taking center stage. So his work has been featured in Fortune, NBC News, The Huffington Post, Men’s Health, and Yoga Journal. You may know him from TikTok or Instagram or the Flirtations Flirtcasts where like you can find it wherever you listen to podcasts. Welcome, Benjamin. Glad you’re here.
Benjamin Camras (01:43)
Hi, Lily. Thank you so much for having me on the show and I’m excited to talk about flirting today.
Lily Womble (01:46)
Yes. Okay.
So for people that feel behind in their love lives, especially those that would self identify as a late bloomer, maybe they just got out of a 25 year marriage and they have never dated anybody but one person before. Maybe they’ve never dated before ever. And everyone in between, ⁓ maybe they’ve been on 50 first dates, but feel paralyzed to approach somebody in person. What is…
Benjamin Camras (01:52)
Mmm.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lily Womble (02:14)
What is flirting? How do we break it down?
Benjamin Camras (02:17)
Hmm.
What is flirting? I mean, first, I understand, a lot of your listeners, lot of the daters and flirters may be feeling some nerves, some anxiety. They’re in their head a little bit, overthinking. What is this? How does this work? But also, everyone has an inner flirt, and there’s no better time to start flirting than right now. Why not?
Lily Womble (02:39)
Wait, so, okay, so how do you know everyone has an inner flirt? Because there are lot of people listening that are just like, I don’t, that’s not me.
Benjamin Camras (02:47)
Because everyone has the capacity to connect. Everyone has the capacity to listen, to ask questions, to acknowledge, to be seen and see others, right? And so this is what it’s all about. Flirting is a practice of connection. I say it’s the authentic practice of connection in the present moment without expectations. And that’s all we’re looking to do is it starts with that nonverbal expression of interest. Maybe it’s eye contact and a smile. It starts with a question. It starts with a compliment. It starts with an observation, a little bit of storytelling. It starts with…
Lily Womble (02:49)
There we go.
Benjamin Camras (03:15)
maybe offering something about yourself. It starts with just those micro moments, that first instance of, hello, how are you? My name is, you could start there and then letting it evolve, letting it breathe, letting it unfold from there. And maybe a flirt exists only in the moment. Maybe it’s with someone you’ll never see again. Maybe it’s someone you see out and about at a class, at like running errands somewhere like in your town or city and you…
of know each other, you’ve observed seen each other before, but you’ve never even said hello, anything like that. So there’s always opportunities for flirting because there’s always opportunities for connection and everyone has the capacity and the capability to do that. It’s not something that you’re inherently born with. If anything, it’s a skill that you can learn.
Lily Womble (04:08)
Okay, so you’re saying flirting is for everyone, Benjamin. And as I mentioned in your bio that you shared with me before this episode, you identify as socially anxious. Tell me about that because I think people have this assumption that socially anxious people cannot flirt, especially if they consider themselves socially anxious. like, tell us a little bit about your journey to flirting and…
Benjamin Camras (04:12)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Lily Womble (04:37)
How has that been a struggle and what went down to bring you to here?
Benjamin Camras (04:43)
Yeah, I mean, I’ve always been socially anxious and I feel like I still am. I’m not exactly gonna be like the life of the party, like the one that’s sort of that more extroverted, outgoing person, but I’ve learned how to adapt and how to make this work for me even in social situations, at parties, maybe you’re at work, maybe you’re in a new environment, you’re starting school.
⁓ You’re taking a class, you’re at a networking event, you’re doing some solo travel, you want to do a solo date. And so I like to make the distinction also that social anxiety can exist alongside introversion, but you know, they’re not exactly the same things. But for those of us that feel like we’re naturally more introverted and socially anxious, it’s almost like this double whammy of you’re out and maybe feel alone in a crowd.
or you wanna say the thing, you wanna say what’s on your mind, you wanna flirt, but you feel like you just can’t. It’s almost like this feeling of claustrophobia. Like you’re gonna get it wrong, like maybe they won’t like me, I’m gonna be too weird or too awkward, they’re probably gonna reject me, I’m not good looking enough, handsome, pretty enough, whatever. And when you play all of that around in your mind, it’s going to create a lot of these invisible barriers.
Lily Womble (05:45)
you
Hmm.
Benjamin Camras (05:59)
within the self that make it seem like flirting is impossible, makes it seem like just that practice of connection is impossible. so, one place to start is think about those environments where it could just be one-on-one with a friend, maybe a family member, a neighbor, could be a coworker, a teacher, where you’ve felt like you can just have that exhale, like the shoulders drop away from your ears.
you’re thinking a little bit more clearly, you’re feeling a little bit more grounded, more present, however you might want to describe that experience. And how do you like to connect in those moments? Do you kind of maybe, what’s the word I’m looking for? Like kind of sit back in a sense and let the other person talk. Maybe you ask some questions, but really not talk about yourself too much at first. And then you get into it and then you start opening up a little bit more. Do you like to play with humor?
Do you feel like you have some jokes in you, right? You wanna get the other person smiling and laughing. Is it more about making observations? What’s happening around you? Do you like offering compliments? How does it feel to give and receive attention? So in those moments where you haven’t really been thinking about, like, let’s sort of table, put a pin in flirting for a moment and just talk about connection. In those moments where you’ve been connecting with someone else, it can be someone you know, of course, what has worked well for you?
or reflecting back if you’ve never thought about it before, what do you feel like has worked well for you? What’s kind of your natural flirt style, right? And so that is a perfect place to start and you can replicate a lot of that in the flirt with someone you don’t know, with a stranger, maybe someone you feel is attractive, which trips everybody up. I say, don’t only flirt with the person you think is attractive. The point isn’t to express physical.
Lily Womble (07:30)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Benjamin Camras (07:49)
attraction or trying to explore physical chemistry right away, especially if this is someone you don’t know. Right? Like, yeah, of course you’re going to be nervous when you’re thinking, my gosh, I just want them to like me. I want them to like me. I would say that’s not even the point right away, which kind of catches people like this. I’ll say this on call sometimes and they’ll be like, what? Huh? What? What do you mean? Isn’t that the whole point?
Lily Womble (07:57)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm… Yeah.
Yeah. What is the point of
the point of flirting is to like go on a date and like find somebody. Yeah. I think that perception is yeah.
Benjamin Camras (08:21)
Sure, it can be, it can be.
Yeah, but I find that perspective to be a little bit limiting too, and how you feel like you can flirt, who you feel like you can flirt with, and it also incorporates this expectation into the flirt that it now has to go a certain way, that it has to be this one thing, or it was wrong, it was bad, it was a failure. See, look, this happened to me again, this happens all the time. I’m not good at this, I knew this was gonna happen.
Lily Womble (08:29)
Hmm
Yeah.
Right. Using it as fuel against yourself for the future. Yeah. Tell me how you started flirting. Was this something that you, did you always view it as like, it’s just connection or especially as a socially anxious person, was there like a turning point for you or an introverted as an introvert? Like, was there a turning point for you?
Benjamin Camras (08:53)
Yes. Yes.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Well, it all started with one TikTok video, I mean, how the Flirt Coach, the Flirt Coach got started, ⁓ you know, as someone on the socials. ⁓ Every now and then, or reflecting back to when I was first getting started in coaching and showing up on social media, I knew I always wanted to make videos. I love being creative and exploring creativity.
Lily Womble (09:14)
Tell me.
Benjamin Camras (09:34)
This one I made about flirting where, the punchline was, all right, how do you relieve stress? Is it breathing? Is it going on a walk? Is it taking a nap? Is it meditating? Like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. It’s flirting. And it was a video that I don’t know anyone will remember. Not that many people saw it, to be honest, but I remember, because it was the first one where I got just a handful of comments. Those three, four comments was like, yes, this is me, right? I feel seen in this video. I do this too. And I felt like,
for the first time in making videos that I was connecting with people in a way that I really wanted to connect, right? This message about flirting, people were like, yes, I relate to this. And so I just, it evolved from there. That was the one that really changed it for me. But to really answer your question, I’ve long struggled with my mental health, with depression and anxiety. I mean, for just decades of my life, it’s still something that I…
I like I have to navigate every day and I’m thankful and grateful that I have just that perspective, those tools. I’ve really worked on my mental and physical health as well. So I feel like I’m coming into a pretty good place. But all the while, looking back, it was making those connections. It was just holding the door for someone. It was asking a question. It was being curious. It was making observations. It was offering a compliment. It was just…
smiling at somebody. Smiling is one of the greatest antidepressants, energy changers, energy movers in the world and it’s free. You can do it right now at any time. Right? And so I recognize that it was all of those instances of connection, perhaps even flirting, which got me out of my head, which got me into the moment. One of my taglines, my catchphrases is get out of your head and into your heart.
And that’s what I feel like connection and flirting did. At least for a moment, I felt like I was a part of something. I wasn’t just isolated. I wasn’t just sort of withdrawn into myself, just wrapped up in my own thoughts, which were like, you know, this cage of like, I can’t get out of this. What am I going to do? Nothing’s working. I’m going to be miserable and unhappy and depressed and lonely and alone forever.
Lily Womble (11:30)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mmm, yeah.
Benjamin Camras (11:59)
connection
was the antidote. ⁓ And so I have evolved that into talking about flirting and then relating a lot of that to dating and relationships because I get a lot of questions about dating and relationships as that’s one of the biggest reasons why people want to flirt.
Lily Womble (12:14)
Yeah, I love that this connection is the antidote to social isolation and even that self-blaming voice that can be a bomb to that. And for anybody out there who’s struggling with depression or anxiety, I hope that you have a great care team around you who’s helping you through both and this is something that you can explore.
Benjamin Camras (12:36)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Lily Womble (12:44)
doing
what I’m hearing, Benjamin, is like solo this week is starting to connect with people on your block. If you live in a city like I do or people at your grocery store or what have you. I’m wondering how did you get over it? Because so many people who feel behind, feel like late blimmers, really fear that rejection socially. Even
Benjamin Camras (12:49)
Totally.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm. Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Lily Womble (13:11)
a hello on the street to somebody or ⁓ like, ⁓ nevermind, I think you’re cute, you know, at a bar. like, really fear this social rejection, the brush off or the, sort of the worst case scenario of fear I perceive is someone being like, why would you think that you could talk to me? know, like this, like, who do you think you are thing? How did you overcome the fear of rejection?
Benjamin Camras (13:18)
Right. Right.
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Totally. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lily Womble (13:41)
sort of low stakes rejection when you were first starting to connect in this way.
Benjamin Camras (13:43)
Mm-hmm.
it’s tough, especially if you’re flirting with someone, you want to talk to someone that you think is cute or this is someone like you, you, maybe you see around, I get the gym question a lot or you’ve seen around in class kind of thing and you’re working up the nerve, right? I’m going to make the move. I’m going to say the thing. And then they just sort of like brush it off or they don’t really engage or they don’t really acknowledge you or they drop like,
Lily Womble (13:54)
Yeah.
Benjamin Camras (14:13)
They’re dating someone or they’re in a relationship and you didn’t know that and it’s like that sting that ping that that pain of rejection It just feels like all-consuming like you feel embarrassed you feel sort of awkward in a way We’re like, my god, like cringe like I can’t believe I just did that. Yeah
Lily Womble (14:28)
It feels like proof that like something’s
wrong with me. People don’t want to talk to me. People don’t like to be around me. Nobody would ever choose me. It becomes this huge story. Yeah.
Benjamin Camras (14:37)
Yeah.
I mean, a couple of things that have helped me is coming from this place of curiosity. I don’t try and have this expectation of what I want to happen in the flirt, what even I’m going to say, what I feel like the other person is going to say, how I feel like this should go or could go. Just coming from this place of curiosity, and I’m often very playful in the flirt. That is my dominant.
Flirt style, I tend to blend some sincerity with that as well. Your other flirt styles are playful, sincere, physical, and traditional. Free Flirt Styles quiz, I can link that for your listeners, yes!
Lily Womble (15:09)
Wait, you show slow that down? need that. So the
listeners need that. What are the types of flirting again? Would love that.
Benjamin Camras (15:16)
⁓
Yeah, the four dominant flirt styles, there are the sincere style, the playful style, the physical style and the traditional style. And this comes out of published research from the University of Kansas. It’s a little bit, I’m going to say about maybe 15, 20 years old now, but it’s like in the field of flirt search. It’s about what we have. Yeah, there’s not a whole heck of a lot there. And I would say there’s even this fifth style, which is like this kind of energy.
Lily Womble (15:38)
Yeah
Benjamin Camras (15:45)
Right, sort like this energetic style of flirt where it blends maybe all of that, but it’s like, you you feel like some energy in the flirt. You feel some vibes. You bring maybe some humor into it. I play with the playfulness that’s just a part of my personality and how I like to connect. I like to make people smile and hopefully feel good and coming from this place of curiosity. And then remembering or trying to remind myself that none of this is personal.
Lily Womble (15:45)
Okay.
Okay.
Benjamin Camras (16:15)
Like if someone doesn’t want to engage back with me or acknowledge me or flirt back or ask me a question back, like that can’t be anything about me. They don’t know me. They’re, yeah, it’s just, it can’t be personal.
Lily Womble (16:27)
Mm-hmm.
It’s so good because the brain loves to assume that it’s personal in order to keep us as safe as humanly possible. But what I’m hearing you say is like, this is like emotionally safe flirting is working under the assumption that this cannot be, their reaction cannot be personal. Like it can’t be. By the nature of something being personal, they would have to know me. And I also am,
Benjamin Camras (16:40)
Totally.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right. Right.
Lily Womble (17:01)
really geeking out on these two Buddhist principles lately. Nothing is personal and everything is temporary.
Benjamin Camras (17:08)
Yeah, yeah, great philosophy and wisdom in that. I know it’s, I know, I know, and I know it’s gonna feel personal, especially if you feel like you have these experiences a lot. It’s like this, this element of confirmation bias where even maybe if you predetermine, you decide before a flirt, a moment of connection even happens, how it’s gonna go. And then it ends up going that way.
Lily Womble (17:11)
And ⁓ look, hard to hold on to though.
writes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Benjamin Camras (17:36)
It’s confirming,
right? Everything you may think and feel about yourself. So, ⁓ one, couple of the things that can help here is there’s always another flirt. There’s always another flirt. And maybe you’ve seen this video going around recently. I feel like it makes the rounds every now and then this concept of when it comes to nervous system regulation, it’s just about having new experiences. Give yourself an opportunity to have a new
Lily Womble (17:45)
Yeah.
Hmm… Yeah.
Benjamin Camras (18:04)
experience and so maybe you practice the flirt with a friend, maybe you practice the flirt with someone that you know that does feel safe and be like, okay, I’m going to pretend like you’re my crush, that person that I’ve been seeing that I want to talk to on the subway or whatever. Let’s like, let’s just role play a little bit. This is what I feel like I would say. This is maybe how I would get your attention and then play with how you like to give and receive energy because of course the other person is their own.
person as well. They have their own free will and agency and if they don’t want to engage or flirt back, that’s okay.
Lily Womble (18:36)
Yeah. Can we do a little role play now? OK, great. So do you who do you want to be in this role play?
Benjamin Camras (18:38)
I would love it. Let’s do it.
Do want me to ⁓ sort of be the person that’s flirting or being flirted with?
Lily Womble (18:48)
You
choose, you choose.
Benjamin Camras (18:51)
Okay, let’s do, I’ll do the flirting.
Lily Womble (18:55)
Okay, great. So let’s use the subway example that you just mentioned. I’m the cutie on the subway that you’ve had, like you’ve maybe seen me a couple days in a row, a couple of weeks in a row, similar like time that we get on the subway every day for our commute, not very crowded train. I am maybe like reading a book or something, like looking at my phone more, more language, unfortunately, but looking at my phone.
Benjamin Camras (18:58)
Okay, okay.
Yes.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Lily Womble (19:24)
And ⁓ let’s do like worst case scenario first. Does that sound good? Okay, go for it.
Benjamin Camras (19:30)
Okay. Sure. Sure. Okay. All
right. So let’s say also I’m going to add in the caveat that you’ve got your headphones in because you probably, of course, of course you do. You’re reading, scrolling your phone, texting, and have your headphones in looking down. Yeah. Like don’t talk to me. Don’t approach me. Nothing. Okay. So I’m going to start with a little bit of a nonverbal expression of interest. I’ve got to get your attention in some way. I just don’t want to walk up to you in like
Lily Womble (19:38)
Okay, great example. Yes, of course I have my headphones in. Of course I’m totally disconnected from the world.
huh, ⁓ huh,
Benjamin Camras (19:59)
cut you on the shoulder or sort of like get in your face or like enclose like your personal proximity, right? Because you said the train is not like it’s low key, not busy. Yeah. So I am going to try and get your attention with like a smile, a little bit of a head tilt kind of wave kind of thing. And then like sort of do this, like, can I come over like sort of motion? Could I come sit by you or sort of come talk to you and see how you receive that if you smile back?
Lily Womble (20:04)
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay, okay.
Okay.
Benjamin Camras (20:29)
we’re doing worst case. you just sort of like give me like a half like closed mouth smile, like sort of like, mm-hmm. And then look right back down, sort of like shoulders are coming in, you’re closing up a little bit, just like really getting on your phone or maybe even like you take a call, like, I’m busy, busy now.
Lily Womble (20:38)
Okay.
Yeah.
Wow, okay, okay, are we doing it or was that, I mean, I think that that.
Benjamin Camras (20:49)
Mm-hmm.
That was the worst case. It’s done. There’s nothing left to do.
Lily Womble (20:55)
my God, it’s over. happened. And then what happens if you try this, the listeners trying this and then, okay, let’s say we’ve prepared for the worst case scenario. It happens. They give kind of like a pity smile, I guess we say, and they go deeper into their phone and you suddenly are filled with feelings and shame and embarrassment thinking, did anybody see me do that? Did anybody on the train experience like,
Benjamin Camras (20:57)
It’s over!
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Mm. Yeah.
Lily Womble (21:24)
I’m so embarrassed and I feel rejected even though I didn’t even talk to this person. Other people think I’m a, thoughts in their head probably, other people think I’m a loser because this person didn’t, they think that I’m like a weirdo loser who’s trying too hard, blah, blah, blah, blah, How in that moment do you handle that reaction?
Benjamin Camras (21:27)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah. Okay.
⁓ No one else on the train noticed. No one saw. Trust me. They are looking at their own phones. They are in their own heads in their own worlds. No one noticed. I promise. No one is thinking to themselves, my God, what a loser said, no one, that’s only you. ⁓ So what I’m gonna do is just be like, ⁓ smile to myself. There’s always another flirt. I tried.
Lily Womble (21:50)
Yeah. Yeah.
Benjamin Camras (22:06)
I did something that was difficult that perhaps would allow me to experience a rejection, which isn’t really, you know, this is someone that just didn’t want to have a conversation and that’s okay. They get to make that decision and if the roles were reversed, there have probably been times in my life when I’ve also made that decision. I just didn’t want to. It wasn’t anything about me. And so for your listeners, it’s not anything about…
You, if you are making it personal, like I tend to hear this one about appearance, right? If, ⁓ I just like, we’re better looking, prettier, handsomer, handsomer or whatever, like they would have smiled, they would have acknowledged. We don’t know that.
Lily Womble (22:38)
⁓ Yes.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Benjamin Camras (22:50)
It’s like, I get that, I get that. But you are the one that took the risk. You were the one that did something scary. And I want you to feel proud of yourself for that. Allow that to be the experience and start to have a little bit of that corrective experience as we’re talking about like a moment ago, just giving yourself those new nervous system experiences. If you feel like you start to shut down, you’re going into that fear, that rejection, that overwhelm, that embarrassment, that cringiness, catch yourself.
Lily Womble (23:00)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
right.
Benjamin Camras (23:19)
flip it and reverse it. I did it. I tried. There’s always another flirt. Yeah.
Lily Womble (23:23)
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think that new experiences will feel like death in some cases, especially if it involves any sort of rejection. The brain fears rejection like it’s fierce death. Cause when we lived in caves, social objection meant death and dying from exposure. So it makes sense that new experiences don’t feel good all the time and maybe normalizing that being compassionate. So let’s do like, best case scenario here.
Benjamin Camras (23:30)
Totally.
Mm-hmm. Yes, it did. Yeah.
Totally. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Sure.
Lily Womble (23:51)
And let’s role play a little convo. So I’m
on my phone, I’ve got my headphones in, you do a little head tilt or like a little wave. And then then what I kind of what what would this person do to signal that they were open to a connection or conversation?
Benjamin Camras (24:06)
You’re
acknowledging me maybe with the eye contact as well, a smile, maybe like the posture sort of like, you the spine straightens a little bit, body language is a little bit more open. You could be a little bit nervous if maybe like you sort of shift around in your seat or even like you make eye contact then look away kind of thing. Like it’s nerve wracking. And I think we all do that. Like when you make eye contact with someone and then you’re like, ⁓ God, what?
What was what do I do next? What’s gonna happen? What is this? And so I would come over. And since this is someone like, don’t know you yet, but I’ve seen you before. I’m just going to introduce myself like, hey, I’ve seen you on the train before. I’m wondering if we have like similar commuting patterns or we seem to always find ourselves here. At the same time, I wanted to come up and say, hello, my name is Benjamin. How are you?
Lily Womble (24:33)
Yeah.
I’m Lily, like I’ve noticed you too. ⁓ Yeah, we must have the same train pattern, so funny.
Benjamin Camras (25:03)
Yeah, well, I do have quite a ridiculous mustache, so.
Lily Womble (25:07)
I’ve definitely noticed you.
But, you know, I’m usually like buried in my phone. So I’m glad you said glad you said hi.
Benjamin Camras (25:15)
Yeah, me as well. How’s your day going so far?
Lily Womble (25:17)
It’s good, you know, it’s like, you know, it’s the morning, going to work. How about you?
Benjamin Camras (25:20)
Mm-hmm.
Okay, now I have a really important question. Are you in the morning a coffee drinker? How do you get your day started?
Lily Womble (25:26)
What?
Okay, pause. This is great. Because you’re
immediately, because people talk to me about this too. They’re like, well, what do I say next? Because we’re getting into this like small talk, like weather sort of adjacent conversation. You just interrupted that pattern by dropping this like bombshell feeling, I have a really important question for you. And then sort of a silly question or like an innocuous question.
Benjamin Camras (25:42)
Mm-hmm. Mm, yeah. Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
Lily Womble (25:58)
Tell me why, I know why, but like tell me why you’re doing that.
Benjamin Camras (26:00)
⁓
A couple reasons. One, just like you said, it breaks up, it interrupts the expected flow of conversation. But now it’s like, how are you? Good. How are you? ⁓ Good. So kind of like chilly today. It’s like getting to be fall, right? Leaves are changing. You’re maybe talking about something expected, that kind of small talk that verges on like, I say boring. You’ve got to start somewhere to get yourself into the conversation. But this is why I detach from expectations. I don’t expect or plan how this is going to go.
Lily Womble (26:23)
Yeah…
Benjamin Camras (26:30)
So we were talking about like the opening there was talking about our morning routines possibly or how we start our day, what we do in the morning. Like do we sleep in? Do we get up early? Are we night people, morning people? And so I chose to take it in the direction of like, do you like coffee? Because then that opens it up. I really like coffee as well. Now we have something in common. If you like coffee, maybe that leads to, do you want to go for coffee sometime? So a little bit, that’s what I’m thinking.
Lily Womble (26:42)
Yeah.
my god, it’s almost like you’re an expert
in this.
Benjamin Camras (27:00)
⁓ but
I asked that one. love this, kind of like the, like you’re sort of like, what’s the word I’m looking for? Like you’re saying something that is unexpected. So when you say, have a really important question to ask you, the other person is like, what? And then you follow it up. You’re just playing with contrast and this comes from improv where you’re not asking like, so.
Lily Womble (27:19)
What? Yeah.
Benjamin Camras (27:27)
Tell me about your trauma. Tell me about your childhood. No, you’re asking a really pretty simple basic question about how they start their day. Yeah.
Lily Womble (27:32)
Yeah, so good.
So good, Benjamin. I don’t even think we need to
finish that conversation because at that point it is going to be a magical co-creation where you can’t expect what will happen next. You don’t know how that person’s going to maybe they pick up the ball and run with it. And I think one thing that I want all of my clients to be looking for in friendship or romance, romance, romance is ⁓ co-creation and gameness to play. So I’ve recorded this episode years ago. ⁓
Benjamin Camras (27:44)
absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
No.
Yes.
Lily Womble (28:05)
called using improv rules for your love life. And I think this is what you’re exemplifying as well, which is this like yes and approach. And who wants to be friends with somebody who’s not gonna yes and ensure somebody might not know what to say next. You might not know what to say next, but that doesn’t mean you can’t, know, kind of keep it going with like, that’s another question I think that people have that I have in this moment. What if you feel like you’ve run out of things to say or your mind goes blank because of the stimulus?
Benjamin Camras (28:08)
I love it.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lily Womble (28:33)
the stimuli in front of you and you’re just overwhelmed sort of with like, I’m talking to this cute person, I don’t know what I’m doing and your mind goes blank, what then?
Benjamin Camras (28:41)
I mean, a couple options, like maybe that’s a natural conclusion to the conversation. So like on the train, are you about to get off like on your stop? Maybe they are like you can like maybe there’s like that natural break, like that natural end. And so just saying like, it was so nice to meet you. So nice to talk to you today. Really hope I see you on the train again, something like that. You can just name the experience. So you were wearing this beautiful red sweater today. I might say something like, you know,
Lily Womble (29:01)
mmmm
Benjamin Camras (29:11)
I be honest, my mind just went completely blank. You look so beautiful in this rad.
Lily Womble (29:16)
Benjamin, stop.
Benjamin Camras (29:17)
That’s true!
Lily Womble (29:21)
Thanks, I got it in Paris. But I’m immediately, I know, but then like, of course, like that’s so good, because then I get to talk about this experience that I had in Paris of going to the store and finding this, you know, like, you are so skilled at helping people through this mind. It’s sort of like writer’s block, honestly, people like not even imagining what they could write. You know, I had this when I was writing my book, like I don’t even know what I would say.
Benjamin Camras (29:22)
Yeah. ⁓ wee wee.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Lily Womble (29:51)
This
chapter I’m just so blocked people have this flirting block of like I don’t even know what I would say and you have this just very clear concrete Set of tools that you teach And if anybody’s curious about working with you We’re gonna put the link to do a flirting audit with Benjamin in the description of this episode but I just love that you’re Asking people to name the thing. I’m really distracted because like I can’t believe I’m talking to you because
Benjamin Camras (29:55)
Totally.
Absolutely.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lily Womble (30:21)
We were just strangers on a train two seconds ago in TBH. I don’t know what to say next, but I’m getting off at the next stop. I’ll see you tomorrow, whatever it is.
Benjamin Camras (30:26)
Absolutely. It’s
a, it’s a perfect thing to say as you’re co-creating this connection and like you can just, you can also reframe, rephrase something you already said. You can reflect back onto early part of the conversation. Hey, I really wanted to follow up or ask you more about that thing you said about like that type of coffee you were drinking. You can say something like, just bring it back to the moment. If you feel like you’re in your head, like, you know, I’m so excited that we got a chance to finally.
catch up today. You could just say that. And as we’re building this brick by brick, it’s also not only on you to drive the conversation. This can and probably will happen. It doesn’t mean someone is disinterested. It might very well mean they are nervous. And that’s okay. Sometimes when we get nervous, we get in our head, we only respond. Maybe we go the opposite and just over kind of just like talk, talk, talk.
Lily Womble (30:57)
Cute. Yeah.
There we go, yep.
Yeah
Yeah.
Benjamin Camras (31:26)
That might be your experience as well. But just practice all of these things. They’re all just skills. They’re tools. They’re options. They’re things you can do, not do, take what you need. Yeah, any of it.
Lily Womble (31:35)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I’m wondering how, how would you recommend people know whether or not to like officially like shoot their shot, quote unquote, like, how do you know when to ask for somebody’s number or give your number to someone? How do you know when that, especially for people who’ve never done this before, who are just like, I don’t know if that would be appropriate in certain scenarios. Are they interested? they, are they assuming that are they
Benjamin Camras (31:57)
Hmm
Lily Womble (32:07)
Are they thinking that I’m presumptuous by saying, you want my number? Because what if we haven’t earned that yet? Like how would you recommend knowing, number one, is that earned here, a number exchange? How do you know that? And then number two, how do you initiate that?
Benjamin Camras (32:15)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yes.
Yes, ⁓ this one is honestly tricky because someone could be very engaging, truly enjoying this moment of connection, this flirt. And all the while, you know, this is all pretty platonic. A lot of the examples we’re going through ⁓ and maybe they are in a relationship or maybe like I’ve done this one before. I felt like I was getting really flirty energy from.
a guy and he was not a homosexual. It happened. It’s kind of hard to tell these days, Lily. I don’t know anymore. ⁓ So something you can do rather than, you know, if someone is really engaging back, their body language is starting to open up. It’s pretty expressive. If you’re going into some physical compliments, you’re expressing a little bit of attraction there. It feels like maybe you started out a little bit further apart and now
Lily Womble (32:56)
Mmm. Mmm.
Benjamin Camras (33:18)
like your energy is just getting a little bit closer together. You’re kind of feeling like a little bit of those butterflies, which could be nerves, but also like you’re feeling a little bit of that energy that there’s, ooh, this is something, there’s maybe something a little bit more there. What you can do is as opposed to write out asking for the number, if that’s what you wanna do, ask if they would like to continue the conversation, continue the flirt. So like, hey, I’d love to get together for coffee sometime. Would you be up for that?
And so now they’re gonna say, like, let’s just say yes or no, and they say yes, then ask for the number. Yeah.
Lily Womble (33:54)
Yeah, cool. I
love that. And I’m just thinking through like best case scenario, worst case scenario of these interactions. And I’m thinking of times where I’ve shot my shot and like given my number out. One time it was in New York when I was dating and I was really interested in the waiter and we were flirting at the table. We were having such a good time. And my friend was this like encouraging force. She was like, no, this is flirty. Like this is flirty. It’s not nothing.
Benjamin Camras (34:06)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Lily Womble (34:24)
go for it. And I left my number on the receipt, totally like he could call me or not. And he ended up texting me and we went on a date and there was zero chemistry. I was late to the date. I mean, he was very upset that I was as late as I was to the date. He was turned off from the minute I showed up. It ultimately didn’t work out obviously. Thank God I love being with Chris. But it is that happens where you can flirt and give your number or exchange numbers and then
Benjamin Camras (34:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah Uh-huh Yes
Yes.
Lily Womble (34:53)
You go on a date and it’s nothing. I also had this interaction. So I’m very, I’m very naturally like, I love giving compliments and I love connecting with people. And the other day I was, and I passed this along to everyone I listened to. Like, it’s not that deep. Like give a compliment, tell somebody you love their sweater. I will, I’m so weird. I will.
Benjamin Camras (35:03)
Mm. Mm.
Mm. Mm.
Lily Womble (35:20)
wave blatantly to any firefighter who I said, I’m like, hi, good to see you. Thank you for your service. I love what you do. Like literally I’m very weird in that way and I love how weird I am in this way. my God, I love to connect. And you know what firefighters, love it. They love, sometimes they brush me off, but most of the time they’re like, hey, so, God.
Benjamin Camras (35:23)
Yes, yes I love that you do that. I love that you do those things
Yeah, they do.
They’re fun to flirt with. Anyone in a uniform,
Lily Womble (35:43)
I mean, specifically firefighters. I’m going to exclude other civil servant uniforms, folks. But ⁓
Benjamin Camras (35:43)
to be honest. Yes. Okay, okay. Fair.
Lily Womble (35:52)
anyway, there was one time where I was doing a friendship flirt on the subway and it did turn into a coffee date that in which she did pitch me to join her cult. So that is, I think, maybe friendship flirting or flirting like.
Benjamin Camras (35:56)
Okay.
Hmm… Yeah.
Lily Womble (36:10)
worse, one of the hard things of like you’re running into some people that you aren’t sure of their vibe. And so I guess the other thing is like in terms of like emotional safety, physical safety, how are we encouraging folks to vet people? Maybe before? I think
Benjamin Camras (36:14)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Hmm.
Lily Womble (36:31)
meeting in a public place, if you ever go from flirting to meeting IRL, because I think people have lost the art of in-person connection because of these fears, because of lockdown, losing the social skills. But meeting in a public place, I think is a must after flirting and going IRL with somebody. What else are we asking people to do who’ve never done this before to ensure like, you’re good, go connect with people?
Benjamin Camras (36:37)
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yes, I agree. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean, it’s
exchanging, you know, if you want to ask for someone’s number or offering yours, like, aren’t you gonna ask for my number, right? We need to really hang out again after this kind of thing. Like giving some information that you feel comfortable and safe giving. Definitely like not letting anyone like follow you home or something like that. We’re not going like into like, we should hang out right away. Like, I’m going home. Like, let’s just slow like, no, we’re not doing anything like that.
Lily Womble (37:17)
Yeah.
Benjamin Camras (37:24)
Give it a moment, give it a little bit of space, see what the follow-up is like from you and from them. Definitely that first date, the next interaction, the next flirt, and public for sure. ⁓ And like you’re kind of gonna see a lot about who someone is or could be through how they’re flirting, how they’re engaging, how they’re acknowledging you, the type of questions they’re asking, you know, if this is someone that’s really critical or judgmental or…
Lily Womble (37:30)
Yeah.
Benjamin Camras (37:54)
dismissive or it seems like they’re misogynist or sexist or egotistical. Like they are going to reveal themselves. Yeah, yeah.
Lily Womble (38:02)
Right, or love-bomby. That’s the thing
with this friend date that turned into this very odd interaction that I can look back on in hindsight and say, ⁓ she, I was really lonely and I was really ⁓ new to this city, I was looking for friends. And looking back, she was very love-bomby energy of like, ⁓ I’m so glad that you reached out because I’m just obsessed with you and da-da-da-da.
Benjamin Camras (38:15)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm… Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Lily Womble (38:29)
And I think just like looking out for anything that feels mismatched with the level of connection that you have. And I also think, what do you think about exchanging Instagram before phone number?
Benjamin Camras (38:34)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
It’s fine. If you feel more comfortable doing that, if this is someone you truly wanna see again, you wanna go on a date with or pursue some type of romantic connection, I would prefer the phone number just because y’all don’t need to be getting to know each other through Instagram or through DMs and now you can send disappearing pictures and they can check about what you’re posting in stories, what you’re posting on your feed, are you the type that’s updating?
write your friends, like what you had for breakfast kind of thing. Like they don’t need that kind of glimpse into your life before you’ve really had like more of that proper date. I feel like there’s a couple things I wanna say, cause one of the points of criticism or feedback I get sometimes is, well, all of this just seems a little bit inauthentic. You know, it seems a little bit even performative. So like how…
Lily Womble (39:32)
Mm, yeah, I get that too, yeah.
Benjamin Camras (39:36)
How can you know if someone is authentic or how do you bring that element into the flirt? And I hope a lot of what we’ve talked about so far will be helpful there because like you’re not trying to be liked or you’re not necessarily trying to like get the date or to get the number. You’re not trying to prove something to somebody else. You’re not trying to like make yourself seem.
Certain way like this is where it does get inauthentic and this is one of the points of criticism I get about small talk sometimes like that just seems so authentic Why do I want to talk about the weather then don’t but still you got to start you got to start somewhere But I hope a lot of these a lot of this conversation will help you bring more Authenticity into the flirt help you bring more of you into the flirt allow you to feel
Lily Womble (40:00)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Benjamin Camras (40:24)
trusting of yourself and of others enough just to have those moments of connection. Like this is one of the biggest things talking about just the loneliness epidemic and coming out of lockdown and COVID and social media and digital dating with the apps and everything. It’s like a lot of us just we’re so distrusting. We’re so hyper independent and just feel like, well, I don’t want to…
Lily Womble (40:40)
Yeah.
Benjamin Camras (40:52)
I don’t want to acknowledge somebody. I don’t want to flirt with someone that may hate me, you know?
Lily Womble (41:00)
Well, and we’re not acknowledging, but now I think we can, this like very real, this reality that trans and queer folks are less safe, people of color are less safe in our…
Benjamin Camras (41:10)
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Lily Womble (41:17)
white supremacist, homophobic, transphobic society, especially under this administration and in this moment. Immigrants, know, any women immigrants, like anybody with any marginalized identity, especially with multiple, like we can’t talk about flirting, I don’t think, without acknowledging that there is a differing level of privilege. If you’re cis and straight and white, then you’re walking through the world’s
Benjamin Camras (41:21)
Women? Yeah.
Mm-hmm. I know.
Yeah, we have to.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Lily Womble (41:46)
You know, living with a different level of privilege than someone who is not cis straight white. knowing that this conversation is one that I hope supports people of so many identities, I have some ideas, but what do you tell people who hold one or multiple marginalized identities about flirting in a way that is as safe as possible?
Benjamin Camras (41:51)
Absolutely.
Yes.
Yeah, I mean, you can start with those nonverbal expressions of interest, like just seeing how someone is just open to even having a conversation, having a moment of connection, maybe a flirt with you. Anyone who is open or up for that, right, is gonna have some of that, they’re gonna reciprocate that, they’re gonna acknowledge you. And so that is a relatively…
safe place to start. You’re not talking about yourself. You’re not giving out any personal information. You’re not even necessarily approaching someone or inviting a situation or experience that you don’t want to have relatedly and opposite to that. If you’re not open to being flirted with, that’s certainly that’s okay too. And I hope people feel safe to have those boundaries to say no.
Lily Womble (42:43)
Right.
Yeah.
Benjamin Camras (43:06)
to be the one that does look down, that takes the call, that walks away if you’re just not feeling safe or open or wanting to do that with someone, especially if someone has like kind of energy where they’re coming on maybe really strong, a lot of compliments, kind of love-bomb-y, Whew, like take care of yourself, do what you gotta do. It’s hard for me to tell you exactly what to do depending on the situation or where you are, but.
Lily Womble (43:10)
Yeah.
Love, mommy. Yeah. Yeah.
Right. Right.
Benjamin Camras (43:31)
look towards other people, be like, right, my fin’s over there. I gotta go catch up. There’s my parent or whatever. Like, yeah.
Lily Womble (43:32)
Right.
Right. Yeah.
I also think ⁓ for this, that it can help. This is why people prefer dating apps to in-person connection, because there is a level of buy-in and safety. So maybe a way to adapt this, depending on ⁓ your identity, depending on your level of privilege you’re walking through the world with, ⁓ maybe it’s about opting into a specific space, like ⁓ the LGBTQ
Benjamin Camras (43:45)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Lily Womble (44:05)
plus center in your town or city, an event that they’re doing like a bingo night or like a whatever, you’re opting into a space where you have a level of buy-in from the folks there. And then from there, you’re using these tools that Benjamin and I are talking about to flirt at that space where you have this level of buy-in and understanding and a blanket of, you know,
Benjamin Camras (44:07)
Definitely.
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Lily Womble (44:32)
hopefully emotionally safe and physically safe space keeping that any organization worth their salt would be creating in a space like this. So maybe you’re flirting at that kind of thing instead of doing the subway flirt.
Benjamin Camras (44:35)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Absolutely. there’s definitely,
definitely. there are probably, you know, whether you live in a big city or small town, there’s, there’s gotta be somewhere, a coffee shop, a bookstore, a local business, an event, a get together, a meetup, an event bright, even like maybe a Facebook group, like somewhere that is offering social events, gatherings, communities that
Lily Womble (44:55)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Benjamin Camras (45:10)
do feel inclusive and that do feel safe. And so I would encourage you to check out one or more and see about making some flirts happen there.
Lily Womble (45:11)
Yeah.
Absolutely. I also think making flirts happen with your online dating experience can be an interesting, like send a voice memo.
Benjamin Camras (45:26)
Yeah!
Yeah, use those emojis. Play with your punctuation. Yes.
Lily Womble (45:31)
Send a voice memo, go wild, send a little voice
memo saying, I have a really important question for you. Are you a coffee person? you a non-coffee person? Like flirt in that way. And I also think what I’m thinking, if you want to flirt and give out your number, create a Google voice number that is your flirting number. And you’re like, the trick with this number is you gotta call me.
Benjamin Camras (45:38)
Yeah. Do yes. Your memes, your GIFs, all the things, yes.
Lily Womble (45:59)
or like whatever it is, you know, like be, hold it, if you are uncomfortable with anything that you have heard here about like, this won’t work for me for whatever reason, then you just haven’t found your way yet. I think that that’s the ultimate thing. Like people shut down when talking about flirting, because like, that won’t work for me, that doesn’t feel authentic. Well, then what does?
Benjamin Camras (45:59)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Yes.
Right. It’s about finding how you like to connect, how you like to practice that, how you like to flirt and also keeping in mind that not every day you’re going to feel super flirty. I don’t not every moment of every day you’re going to feel flirty. You might have like long periods of time, perhaps where you’re just not feeling it to give, to receive, to flirt, to be flirted with. And all of that is okay. That’s just, that’s life.
Lily Womble (46:25)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right,
right. I also want to say, in adding on to what you’re talking about, everybody is so nervous and in their head. Everybody, nobody is. I hear this one. What are you thinking right now?
Benjamin Camras (46:55)
Yes, they are.
Everybody.
Yes, absolutely.
Lily Womble (47:03)
literally
everybody, and people are inundated with messages and things that they’re forgetting to do and things that they’re wanting to say or do or send or work on, whatever. And just the act of approaching somebody and saying hello can change somebody’s day, can change your day. And I think that this is about these micro moments of connection, even without the
Benjamin Camras (47:08)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes it can.
Yes.
Lily Womble (47:32)
building friendship and building romantic connection piece of like those. I remember there was a study during COVID that was saying that or during lockdown that was saying ⁓ that our those weaker social connections was like third tier connections, fourth tier connections day to day saying hello to your barista going in and seeing your neighbors saying, Hey, how you doing? Like
Benjamin Camras (47:35)
Yes.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Lily Womble (47:56)
those actually increase quality of life and we were missing those so much. So this is a call in for everybody listening to engage your flirt muscles imperfectly and just connect to increase not only your quality of life but the quality of life of those around you in your community.
Benjamin Camras (47:58)
Yes. Yes.
Yes.
Yes, I love that. A call in just to participate more in your life and in the lives of those that live in your communities, your towns, your cities. I mean, there’s all this research and there’s been tons of research about this for a while now about how our relationships and not just the quantity of our relationships, but the quality of our relationships determine our physical health, our mental health, our longevity, our relationships, our everything.
Lily Womble (48:33)
Yeah.
Benjamin Camras (48:38)
what we eat and like, yes, some of these other aspects of health, like sure, but your relationships are so, so important. And what you were talking about just, it’s about acknowledging the barista. It’s about saying hello to the bus driver. It’s about just whatever, right? And whoever, because what it does is it just, it, it humanizes people. It humanizes us in the process as well, where we’re all just living our lives, hopefully doing our best. We have far more in common.
Lily Womble (48:51)
Mm-hmm.
Uh-huh.
Right?
Benjamin Camras (49:08)
than we do not have in common. And it just, it brings us into the moment. It gets us out of our head. Yeah.
Lily Womble (49:16)
Yeah.
What’s one thing that someone can do this week to flirt with somebody? Like one small action step somebody can grab from this episode, put in their pocket from you this week.
Benjamin Camras (49:28)
Take your headphones out, observe, look around, smile at someone, wave at someone, put ⁓ the phone away. Like when I’m on public transportation, I live in a town where I get in my little car, I just putt-putt around. We don’t really have like a robust system, but when I do do that or when I’m traveling, like I’m in the airport or something happens every now and then, I tend to take my headphones out and I look around, I smile.
Lily Womble (49:32)
Well…
Yeah.
Yeah.
Benjamin Camras (49:57)
Not at every single person, but to some people, yeah. Do that. Start there. If you’re not already doing that, that is definitely a place to start and something that you can do.
Lily Womble (50:02)
Mm-hmm. Totally.
Yeah, I love that. Take your headphones out. My one thing for everybody listening would be give a genuine compliment. Just one this week. Just give a genuine compliment. Whenever anybody is having trouble perceiving their attractiveness or themselves, whenever somebody is perceiving that some, like why would somebody be interested in me? I always challenge them to like give out three genuine compliments that week. And if somebody compliments you back, your job is to say thank you so much.
Benjamin Camras (50:16)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Thank you more please. Yes.
Lily Womble (50:37)
Thank you more please to take out your headphones and give one genuine compliment this week.
Benjamin, thank you so much. ⁓ Where can people find you and work with you?
Benjamin Camras (50:42)
Yeah.
You know, online, on the internet, on Flirtstagram, that’s Instagram, Flirt Talk, that’s TikTok, FlirtTube, that’s YouTube, the Florentation’s Flirtcast, my podcast is available everywhere, Spotify, Apple, YouTube, Amazon, all the places, and some places that honestly I’ve never heard of before, that I don’t know how it makes it there, but somehow, somehow it does, and really plugging the Flirt audit, a one-on-one, come, we’ll meet over Zoom, you get the recording, some notes, we’ll…
Lily Womble (51:02)
It’s on everywhere podcasts are found. Yeah.
Benjamin Camras (51:14)
answer all of your floating questions, do some role play, what’s going on, what you’re nervous about, what do you feel like you’re not good at, what do you wanna work on? Yeah, let’s do it. ⁓
Lily Womble (51:22)
Awesome, love it. So you can find
Benjamin everywhere, TikTok and Instagram, at Benjamin Cameras, that is C-A-M-R-A-S. And we will put all that info in the description of the episode. Benjamin, thank you for coming on. Me too. Thank you, bye everyone.
Benjamin Camras (51:29)
Yes.
Yes, I love this conversation. Lily, thank you so, so much for having me on the show.
