In this very first live coaching session on The Date Brazen podcast, you’ll meet Ellie—an amazing, big-hearted late bloomer who’s never had a romantic relationship, and who thought dating was something she missed the memo on. Sound familiar?

Together in this episode we explore:

• Why Ellie stayed on multiple 4-hour dates she didn’t even want to be on

• How to process feeling behind in your dating life

• The surprising strategy shift that gave Ellie permission to want what she wants

• How to practice self-compassion and build dating resilience in real time so you can put yourself out there and attract the right people

If you’ve ever felt behind, unchosen, or like you’re “too late” to find what you want—this episode is for you.

And don’t miss Lily’s free live training: ✨ 3 Steps to Attract the Right Partner as a “Late Bloomer” ✨ on June 17, 2025.

Sign up at datebrazen.com/lets-go

 

Work with Lily:

Learn about her signature program, Main Character Dating: datebrazen.com/waitlist

Book: Thank You More Please

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Show transcript:

Lily @ Date Brazen (00:00.088)

Hey gorgeous friends, welcome to another episode of the Date Brazen Podcast. I’m so glad that you’re here. Today is a very special episode because it marks the first where I am going to be coaching somebody live. I asked my email list who wanted to be coached on the Date Brazen Podcast and so many people applied. Ellie is our first up. Ellie is an amazing human being.

who is also a late bloomer in her dating life. She would self-describe as such. And in this episode, we’re gonna get into what is beneath her patterns of settling for four hour dates where she does not wanna be there after the first 45 minutes.

getting into why she doesn’t yet feel like she has permission to want what she wants. We also get into her dating strategy. So together we came up with a really solid dating strategy that is joyful, that is on her terms, and that is going to enter her into kind of a villain summer where she gets to want and receive more of what she wants. It is such a good episode. I cannot wait for you to listen. And I gotta tell you, before we get into the episode.

This episode is brought to you by my upcoming live training called Three Steps to Attract the Right Partner as a Late Bloomer. In this live training on June 17th, 2025, I’m gonna teach you exactly how to own everything you want without shame or pressure or settling. I’m gonna teach you how to bless and release the wrong people without mind drama. Even that crush that you had three years ago that you think was your person that you’re afraid passed you by.

I’m gonna teach you how to bless and release them so you’re no longer obsessing about those missed chances, so you can actually move forward toward the right people for you in your dating life. And you’re gonna learn my rock solid feminist as hell dating strategy for both online and IRL so that you can go from feeling like a late bloomer to a confident dater this summer who is attracting more than you thought possible.

Lily @ Date Brazen (01:57.56)

Come to my live training on June 17th. It’s going to be a party and you can register right now at datebrazen.com slash let’s dash go. Again, that’s datebrazen.com slash let’s dash go. It is time to enter into your most magnetic main character energy dating season, especially if you feel like a late bloomer. You’re not too late, it’s not over and what you want is possible.

So let’s frickin’ go. Now, let’s get into the episode with Ali.

Hey, I’m Lily Wanvel, former top matchmaker and founder of Date Brazen. After setting up hundreds, I realized that with coaching, women could match themselves better than anyone else ever could. With my unconventional feminist approach, I’ve helped women around the world build courageous and self-trust-filled love lives, and now I’m here to support you. Get ready, because I’m about to share the exact steps you need to attract a soul-quenching partnership and feel amazing about yourself along the way. This is the Date Brazen podcast. Hello, Ellie.

Welcome to the session. you. Nice to meet you too. So excited. So how are you feeling about this?

little nervous but mostly excited. I love what you do and it’s just sometimes an uncomfortable topic for me to talk about but that’s why I’m here.

Lily @ Date Brazen (03:18.902)

Yeah, amazing. Well, we’re going to dive deep into all of it. I loved your application. I loved your deeper dive in the follow-up. And I have a lot of questions for you. But first, I want to know, what is your brag, a celebration about something in your life that you’ve created recently or in general or that you’re really proud of that you want to celebrate with me and us? And then what’s your intention for this session? What do you really want to get out of this session? Those two things.

great. So I think my brag would be that I adopted a dog two and a half years ago and she was so scared and she’s just gotten so much more confident and like people stop me in my neighborhood and are like this is a different dog and I’ve just put so much love and care and attention into her and she’s the best so I’m really proud of her and the work we’ve done together.

She’s the best. I’m in the office today or else she’d be laying behind me and I’d show her off right now. And my intention for this is to just kind of, I want to figure out my issue with dating more. I want to take it like less seriously and have fun with it and just meet people because I’m really good at that. And I want to know, I want to get to the bottom of why I

freak out and get nervous.

Yeah. So let’s start there. Tell me about freaking out and getting nervous. How often are you getting nervous? Like, talk to me.

Ellie Paparone (04:50.99)

It’s more like I get nervous about the big picture of it all. I can talk to a wall for four hours, like totally fine. So I don’t necessarily get nervous for dates. I get nervous when they are starting to turn into something more, like when it’s like a second date or God forbid, a third date. And then I get nervous for like, I’m 32, my friends are all pregnant or have kids and married to wonderful people. And I just feel like…

I’m falling further and further behind and I can’t figure out how to catch up. And I know that sounds like I’m comparing my timeline, but it’s only because it’s something I want.

Yeah, well think it’d be weird if you weren’t comparing your timeline because you’re a human being and we compare ourselves to other people and it sounds like you want something that’s not here yet. Is that… I know from your application, but tell me again, tell me about your relationship history and your dating history.

Exactly.

Ellie Paparone (05:48.878)

There’s not much to tell. I’m turning 33 next week, actually. Thank you. And I’ve never, I’ve never had a boyfriend. I’ve never really even been like in like the talking stage or like casually dating someone for more than a couple dates. I have a ton of friends. I’m very outgoing. I’m constantly out and about. And I just

Happy birthday.

Ellie Paparone (06:17.138)

never meet someone romantically. And so, you know, I’m a big believer in like auras, right? And so like, I make friends really easily because I think I have a very friendly aura about myself. But then there’s not an aura about me romantically. And I think it has to do with, you know, I haven’t had a lot of experience and I am a late bloomer. And I just want to bloom.

You know? Yeah. I want to go from blooming to bloomed.

What would blooming and bloomed look like for you? What do you hope that looks like?

I hope that looks like a really healthy, beautiful relationship where I don’t feel embarrassed by inexperience or lack of knowledge, where I feel totally comfortable being myself and respected and demanding the things I want and deserve. And I think that comes in, also comes with companionship. That’s my biggest thing.

My days are filled. I have lots of love in my life, but I’m really looking for companionship and someone to spend my life with.

Lily @ Date Brazen (07:27.574)

Yeah, beautiful. Okay, so let’s say magic wand that happens next year. Between now and next year, how do you want to feel? What does blooming look and feel like in your dating life between now and the relationship that you want?

Great question. Like if I knew for a fact it was going to happen between now and a year from now, I think I would just kind of like…

encourage myself to date around and like meet people and see what I want. like, you know, I sometimes on the apps, I get pretty caught up in like, well, they don’t want kids and I do so I shouldn’t even bother going on a first date with them. Just go on a first date knowing that my person’s coming in a year and that I can kind of suss things out. Like it’s almost like practicing on them before I meet someone.

Okay, cool. Amazing. So like, I hear confidence, I hear some fuck around energy. And we’re talking at the best time ever because it’s June 3rd. And it is about to be sexy summer for you. Are you ready?

Are you ready, Absolutely.

Lily @ Date Brazen (08:39.214)

Okay, okay. So I, my intention for this session is really to help you understand your blocks more, help you to be kinder to yourself, period, and to also give you an action plan, okay, to follow us because this is like going to help so many people who feel

Like the same as you or very similar to you as like I feel like I’ve done all the right things What’s gone wrong quote unquote, right? So I’m really excited to dive into it. I’m curious about Your when you are putting yourself out there on apps and or in person which it sounds like you’re doing What are you aware of the thoughts your brain is serving up to you while you’re doing that that feel may feel like the truth or the fact of the matter?

I feel like when I’m actually doing it, I’m never nervous or talking down to myself. It’s more like pre or post, right? So I’m thinking a first date. I’m like, okay, and then I go and then afterwards I’m like, my God, if I liked him, he’s not gonna like me back. If he’s texting me, it’s moving too fast for me. If I have gone to dating events and stuff.

afterwards I’ve been like, well, I’m not going to get any matches or, but like when I’m there, I’m talking to everyone. I’m totally fine. so, or like, you know, I didn’t find anyone that I was interested in or whatever, but when I’m actually there, I do, it’s almost like I can like turn on a, I work in fundraising so I can be charming. So I feel like I just turn on a charm. Yeah. Almost like just like let.

Hmm

Ellie Paparone (10:31.84)

another part of me take over. I’m never nervous in those situations.

Does that feel like you? Does it feel like a character you’re playing? Does it may feel like part of you? it like, how is that?

I feel like it’s part of me for sure, but like my friends make fun of me because like I’ll go on like a four hour date and I’ll be like, I knew 30 seconds and I wasn’t interested in him, but like I can just continue the conversation because I feel badly or I don’t know how to say no. They’ll say like, let’s get one more drink. And I don’t know how to say no. I try to blame my dog, but then they always offer to meet my dog.

Of course they do. Why do you think that is that they offer to meet your dog when you say no? Or when you say, I gotta go take care my dog.

Yeah, I think they’re interested and I can carry a conversation with them. like I’ve seen memes that are like, was that a good date or am I just a great conversationalist?

Lily @ Date Brazen (11:29.292)

Right. Yeah, yeah, Well, so tell me about this story that nobody’s going to be attracted to you that I read in your application. just- Is there a, like, tell me about that. Yeah.

just feel like if I was an attractive person, people would have like pursued me in the past, what, 22 years. And so like, it’s kind of like, you know, I’m a woman raised in the 90s. It’s definitely a big thing with body image and with like feeling attractive. And so because like, you know, I’m in high school being like, oh, I’m sure I’ll

I’ll blast them in college. I’m sure men will be interested in me in my 20s. And like, it’s just like never happened time and time again. so like, again, I have so many friends. I have a lot of accolades at work. have great family relationships. I’m involved in my community. So like, it’s gotta be an attractiveness thing, right? It’s almost as if like,

Did she believe that? Or are you like fully bought into that belief?

mean, I think I don’t think I’m a troll, but I think that I am like a bigger woman. And I see a lot of comments. My own were sending me with like reading comments about…

Ellie Paparone (13:04.792)

So fair.

Like, I mean, even like, my God, I just listened to Jessica Simpson’s memoir and she talked about when she was wearing mom jeans and she was like, I was a size four and like, those things are just so steered in my mind forever. And I am, I think I have a lot of insecurity with that, but I am on a GLP one and am losing weight and feeling more confident, like to the point where people have noticed like you seem extra confident lately. So I am feeling more confident with that.

although I don’t want my truth to be that I lost weight and that I that, worthy enough for a

Sure, sure. I don’t want that to be your story either and the good news is that you are meeting this story in real time and that your brain is neuroplastic. You’ve got neuroplasticity, which means that your ingrained beliefs about yourself are shiftable, changeable. Your relationship with yourself is

shiftable, changeable, not because of woo woo, though I am a fan of some woo sometimes, but because the thoughts in our brain, what we believe feel true because we’ve practiced it a zillion times in order to keep ourselves safe. So your brain has practiced, I’m undesirable in the body that I’m in, it sounds like from my understanding, because of the practice that you’ve had and because of the

Lily @ Date Brazen (14:39.722)

socialization that you’ve undergone in a patriarchal, fat-phobic, sexist society. So I think that like it’s all of those things. So of course your brain would respond with this survival story of I’m unworthy as I am. And I think that you get to do with your body what you want to do with your body as long as you are doing things to feed it in the way that you want to be fed. think like your body, your choice about how you want to move forward in your body, both and I

want to cast the vision that you can create a more neutral at first and then hopefully a little more positive when it’s accessible, sometimes relationship with how you show up in the world in the body that you’re in because I really believe like down to my core that your body is not a deal breaker no matter its size for the right relationship, period. What is coming up for you as I say all these things?

I hearing you say that. It’s like, even if I don’t necessarily believe that right now, it’s nice that someone else believes that. I also have found like a lot, like I always thought it was just me and through your webinars and then like, I’ll like, you know, watch your TikToks and then my algorithm, I get more TikToks. I felt like there’s a lot more people like me.

And I do think that the world sets women and people socialize to something else for failure in this regard. it is not just your, it’s not just like you’re practicing thoughts that are not nice to yourself. It’s more than that. Of course, it’s like context, it’s socialization, it’s trauma. It’s like all these things wrapped up into a very complicated package, both and that does not negate the power that you do have about choosing the next chapter of your story.

And this is why I feel so passionate about working with people that feel like late bloomers like I felt because there’s such a pervasive narrative, I think, in a lot of late bloomers’ brains. You’re not alone of like, it’s over. It would have happened by now if it was gonna happen. It’s not possible. This means your brain’s drawing conclusions about your attractiveness because of your lack of relationship history. Your brain is drawing conclusions because that’s what brains do. Not because…

Lily @ Date Brazen (17:02.062)

Well, it’s trying to, it doesn’t want to, the brain doesn’t want to grow or like learn something new. It actually is a pretty primitive thing that just wants you to be in your hidey hole, absolutely a hundred percent safe. And so what I hear is sort of a thread throughout what you’re sharing is this fear that you are not emotionally safe to say no to a four hour date.

that you’re not feeling emotionally safe enough to say no to the people that you’re not attracted to or that you’re not politically aligned with. We’ll get into that. That it doesn’t feel emotionally safe to own what you want. Does that resonate?

huh.

Ellie Paparone (17:42.282)

Yeah, it does. Definitely.

What comes up for you as I say that?

That’s interesting, it gives me more power than I was giving myself. I keep saying dating at 32 is like going through the clearance rack, it doesn’t… Yeah, it’s bigger than that and I can still get what I want.

You can. You can. And the world, here’s a message for you and everybody else. know the comment section can seem like the whole goddamn world is there. Thousands, tens of thousands of people are here saying dating is trash. Tens of thousands of people are saying that dating is hopeless and there’s no good people out there and la la la la la la la. The comment section is not the world’s.

If the comment section was an accurate representation of your future, then I would not have a job. I would not have success stories of clients who felt like I’m a late bloomer and then going to feel like, my God, I’m the most confident fucking version of myself who attracts amazing dates, who has amazing sex, even though I didn’t have sex before this or whatever. I’m attracting this amazing relationship.

Lily @ Date Brazen (18:57.164)

The comment section is not the world and I want you to be aware of the media diet that you are currently consuming, honestly, truly. We need to clean that up. if you were to, just starting there, Ellie, if we were to really clean up the media diet here, if you were ingesting comments rapidly, if you were ingesting dating is trash TikToks or whatever, what…

Would you want the boundary to sound like to start giving your brain a chance to build a new belief? Tell me, what is that boundary gonna, what sounds healthy and like soul nourishing for you in terms of a boundary this summer?

think it’s like, is this helping me grow or is this validating remaining stagnant? Right? Because if I’m on dating is trash TikTok, that’s validating what I feel, why even bother, as opposed to trying to feel better about my situation and how and

growing myself.

Yeah. Can you identify why it has been so difficult to believe like the best case scenario here? What do think will happen if you… hasn’t happened. Sure. Sure. you have confirmation bias happening of like, I have this experience. I want to be right. Your brain wants to be right. So it’s looking for more evidence to prove that story right. You also have a recency bias happening. you have, you’ve maybe recently gone on a first date that didn’t go to a second or a second date that didn’t go to a third.

Lily @ Date Brazen (20:31.352)

And so your brain does the very human brain thing of future casting based on your most recent past experiences. What I’m hearing, what I hear every single day is this idea that it is so vulnerable to hope.

Yeah.

if you haven’t experienced a good relationship or a relationship before. Tell me about what’s coming up for you as I say that.

Totally, it’s almost like when I have hope, even if I keep it to myself, I can still like feel embarrassed. Like even with myself because it’s just like…

Why? What’s the thought that creates the feeling of embarrassment in your body about this?

Ellie Paparone (21:15.608)

thought is like, of course not. it’s the thought that like,

like this kind of thing isn’t meant for you. So like this wouldn’t happen. It’s almost like, my God, I didn’t get a job being an astronaut at NASA. Like, of course not. not, I’m not a NASA.

So this feels, does this feel like NASA to you?

It feels unattainable sometimes, is that?

yes. Okay, that’s really good information for me to know because that’s really evocative, right? Like, let’s think about what you would have to do to get into a space program as an astronaut. You’d have to commit your whole life to learning a skill set, being in the midst of the schooling and like decades of schooling and you’d probably be a doctor and you’d probably have all these credentials. And does it feel right now like you missed that level of knowledge somewhere along the way?

Ellie Paparone (22:13.07)

I always say it feels like I didn’t read a book that everyone else read. Like everyone else like figured it out and I just like was sick that day of school or something.

Yeah. How horrifying must that feel like? Like to date, it might feel like showing up naked to school. Like I’m not ready, I’m not prepared for this. So I’m pointing all of this out to say that if that’s how dating feels right now, of course it would feel emotionally unsafe to set a boundary. Of course it would feel intolerable to hope. Of course it would feel like, am I to believe that what I want is possible? Does that resonate?

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Ellie Paparone (22:50.83)

100 %

So this summer, okay, you’re going to become that bitch, okay? This summer, you are going to go from who am I to I’m Ellie, what about it? Okay?

Because this is actually like if we, understand fully if we engage that self compassion. Do you know about self compassion in this practice that I talk about all the time?

Just in case I don’t, me a lower pressure.

Okay, great segue. So it’s three things, okay? And it is scientifically proven to reduce cortisol because right now, as you think about dating, cortisol is probably spiking, yeah? As you date, cortisol is spiking. Okay, so self-compassion’s gonna reduce cortisol, which everybody needs, you need for dating, and increase resilience because right now, your brain dating resilience is pretty low.

Lily @ Date Brazen (23:47.084)

Because I mean, it’s high in some regard. not gonna like, let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater and like not give you any credit. You can take a lot of credit for even though you haven’t found a relationship, you’ve still dated. That is resilient, both and it’s resilient with an edge of, but it’s not gonna happen anyway. And I might as well just try today, but I know it’s not gonna happen versus resilient with an edge of what next energy. Yeah.

So we’re going toward the edge of what next energy. Self-compassion, three things. Number one, common humanity over isolation. This is defined by Dr. Kristin Neff. So that means you literally give yourself the benefit of imagining the collective of people, like the number of people who listen to this Date Brazen podcast, who resonate with your story or who have felt exactly like you. The people in my program, Main Character Dating, who are like right there with you. The friends that you have who love you, but they’re…

you’ve shared they’re all married. So maybe we imagine like people that you know of that are single that like are joining you, you’re literally not alone. How does that feel to imagine that you’re not alone here?

It is really nice. That’s, mean, that’s why I’m so drawn to your program is because like that I joined a webinar one time and all these like comments were like, me too, me too, me too. And I was like, wait, really? It’s not just, I’m not like the only freak left. And it was like, that was like a huge day for me.

Yeah, that’s amazing. So self-compassion, part one, collective, common humanity, okay? You’re not alone. Part two, kindness over judgment. This is tough. Imagine right now, Ellie, that the kindest, most wise person is sitting next to you, who you respect to you like it could be a version of you, your higher self, your older self, sitting next to you on a park bench, just offering

Lily @ Date Brazen (25:42.594)

what you need to hear. What might she say?

stop freaking out and like let it come as it.

Maybe, maybe, I’m gonna stop She might not say stop freaking out first, she may say like, your freak out is completely understandable to me because you’re in a hard spot.

Lily @ Date Brazen (26:06.488)

Let’s come out for you.

Yeah, that’s, it’s nice. It’s like, it’s nice to, I guess, yeah, not judge the situation right away and kind of say like, you know what, yeah, that does, that is tough. That does suck.

It does suck. It’s validating. This is a very classic thing that people, when learning the practice of self-compassion, which has completely changed my life, when learning it, I had a client who was struggling with this idea of not being desirable, quote unquote. Like she felt really, quote, undesirable. And so I asked her, what do you think self-compassion would say? And her first response was, I am desirable. Like you are. And I was like,

Okay, that’s nice thought, but you don’t believe that yet So that’s actually just like an aggressive opposite Which is sort of I mean I want you to believe that one day too But that’s gonna take practice and baby and like your brain is not going to want to get on board with a thought that feels completely untrue It’s gonna be like get away from me Which is why you have to start with kindness over judgment because saying you are desirable. It’s sort of judging that more tender

Yeah.

Ellie Paparone (27:03.576)

others.

Lily @ Date Brazen (27:18.604)

maybe younger version of yourself who first felt that way, who was rejected on the playground, who was rejected on a school bus, who didn’t have parents that got on your level and showed up for your feelings, whatever it might be, right? This tender self-compassion is getting on your level to be really kind to that version of yourself who first learned that story and first felt this feeling. Does that make sense? So knowing that, what might kindness say right now?

It does.

Lily @ Date Brazen (27:46.914)

to you, that kind, self-compassionate voice.

Yeah, just it is tough and you have tried. And I think they would encourage me to keep trying and go in like…

I would say appreciating the life that I do have and the love that I do have and then anything additional romantically is a great benefit, but my life is super fulfilled without it at this point.

It’s like for sure. I wanna challenge you. You don’t have to do the thing where you’re like, but my life is so full and I don’t like, you can want more in your dating life. And you get to want more. You get to want what you want, Ellie. You get to want to feel confident here. You get to want to feel good about your body here, or at least like neutral when good isn’t accessible, which is so normal, by the way. You get to…

want more. And this gets back into the default thought of who am I, because it hasn’t happened yet. And I would just say like,

Lily @ Date Brazen (29:01.071)

That version of you doesn’t know what’s possible yet, because you don’t know everything.

Yeah, I wish.

I wish too. But kindness over judgment. I would really ask you to practice that. And that’s going to be a good trigger for you in looking at the comments of like, this kind to me and my desires right now? And if not, shut it down. In fact, I would actually propose a dating TikTok Instagram cleanse where you’re actually, and we’ll talk about this more in a moment. had written this down for a little later, but like a

detox from other people’s dating advice and other people’s opinions about your dating life unless they are really aligned with where you’re going and what you want. Like my podcast, somebody else’s podcast that really aligns somebody sharing their story with you that feels aligned and not hopeless core. Good for them, not for me right now is what the boundary I would set for you. I would ask you to set. Does that sound good?

Yeah.

Ellie Paparone (30:06.391)

Yeah, definitely.

That’s a big action step that I want you to take for at least a month or like start with a week, you know, like and see how you feel beginning of the week, end of the week. Okay. Final step in self-compassion is thoughts, not facts. Mindfulness over, over identification. So what I’ve heard you do a couple of times in this session, what I hear most late bloomers doing is over identifying with their thoughts. Very normal. Which is I’m having this thought that it’s hopeless. I’m having this thought, who am I? And it’s a fact. I am this thought.

when actually thoughts are sentences in your brain that are emotional interpretations of the world around you designed to keep you safe, not necessarily designed to help you grow or like very similar to if you were in a survival situation day to day at work where you hated your boss or you like you didn’t have a supportive team or you felt completely and you were in fear and scarcity over there are no opportunities out there.

I’ve never found a better job before. The thoughts you practiced about the, just got to do what my boss says. I’ve got to respond all hours of the day and night. You’re making yourself miserable with these assumptions that you have to acquiesce in order to belong and be safe.

Yeah, that’s so interesting.

Lily @ Date Brazen (31:23.052)

when there’s another version of that, where you practice thoughts like, where you acknowledge this is really hard. This is really hard, self-compassion. This is really hard. This is actually not what I want. And you might then have accessibility to practice like, it might be possible that I just haven’t found the right job yet. It might be possible that I just need to try something new. It might be possible that I need to reach out to people and like,

and

Lily @ Date Brazen (31:52.216)

brainstorm and mastermind solutions to this? How is this sitting with you?

It’s interesting hearing you transpose it to a different part of my life because I would never talk to myself like that in a different part of my life. So it’s interesting to have that translation.

What do you make of it?

that I am able to do things like thrive in my career, make friends, be a productive member of society because I do practice self-compassion over judgment and other areas of my life. And so I think in order to thrive in this area, I have to do the same.

You get to do the same.

Ellie Paparone (32:33.356)

Yeah, I like that, I get it.

You get to do the same. Yeah. So let’s get into the, are you, let’s check in. How are you feeling now as opposed to the beginning of our session in terms of a hope or like possibility meter. If the beginning of the session, like you were at a number and now you’re at a number and I don’t care if you’re the same number or a lower number or a higher number. I just want to hear if one is zero hope and five is a lot of hope. Where were you at the beginning of the session and where are you now?

I would say I went from a 2 to a 3, which on a scale of 5 is pretty good.

really good jump, feel. Yeah. So let’s keep going. Who knows where we’ll be at the end. So why does it matter that you have more access to hope? Because hopelessness is a feeling that creates actions like shutting things down, over-functioning, going on dates with people that are not right for you, even though you know they aren’t because you’re in scarcity. It creates a cycle when you’re like stuck in that feeling.

And what we’re doing here is sort of like getting to know the edges of your experience, getting to, like it’s like a tangled gold chain. And if we tried to go quickly through it and like try to untangle it quickly, the knot would get probably tighter. So what we’re doing here is teasing it apart and like looking at the gold chain and saying like, actually this piece goes through this piece. Like using tools like self-compassion to expand your nervous systems capability to dream.

Lily @ Date Brazen (34:03.926)

of what might be possible outside of your past experience. So that’s what we’re doing. Let’s move on. Tell me about not saying no or not leaving the date after the first hour when you stayed for four. Tell me about that experience. Let’s slow it down and get to know it.

Yeah, it’s happened a handful of times where like, I went to a date one time and as soon as I hugged him to say hi, I was like, this guy’s not wearing deodorant. And then like, it just got weirder from there. But you know, he says like, do you want to get another drink? Do you want to go to another bar? And if I can’t think quick enough, I just say sure. And if I don’t, and I say, oh, like I have to always make an excuse, right? Oh, I have to get up early tomorrow or I have to go.

you know, let my dog out or something. And then they want to walk me home and then I’ll say, okay. And then, oh, I’m not going to have you come in. You know, my dog doesn’t like new people or whatever it is. And I don’t feel in the driver’s seat where I can just say like, I’m all set. Like, thank you so much, I’m, I’m, I don’t even know how to pretend with you, let alone what to say on a date. I feel like I had a script in my head.

Well, good news, we can make one. Yes. And you just need to practice it out loud more often. So even before a date, you can practice saying out loud, hey, I’m going to, I need to go home. I had a nice time. Thank you so much. Do you want to go out again? I’ll let, I’ll actually let you know. I try to take 24 hours after all dates, just to be really intentional about, my feelings and post date, you know, thoughts. So I’ll, I’ll let you know. Thanks so much.

So nice to meet you, hug, bye. So we can practice that. But I think that it’s coming from this deeper well though of something.

Ellie Paparone (36:03.096)

Yeah, where it’s like.

He’s out with me, so I finally got someone to let go out with me, so maybe I should give it more chances.

Yeah. What would happen if you gave it more chances?

He still’s not wearing deodorant?

He’s still not wearing deodorant. if I don’t, here, let’s do this a thought experiment. If I don’t stay for as long as he wants to stay, then.

Ellie Paparone (36:33.966)

Great, I guess go home.

No, but like in your mind there, why are you staying? Like in your brain, if I don’t stay for longer or if I am rude or if I do like say no to this person who wants to go on a date with me, then that will mean…

two things, one, that I’m being rude or that I hurt his feelings, and I think two, that I’m not giving him enough of a chance, right? So like, let’s say, like, I feel like I know right away, but the first drink is over in 45 minutes, he asks if I want another one, I feel like…

is that I feel like it’s mean to like, just dismiss someone after 45 minutes. Yeah. Even though I know it’s not the case.

Well, so what would it mean if you were mean? What would that mean about you? If I’m mean, therefore I am.

Ellie Paparone (37:30.092)

I mean, it’s almost like how can I never have been in a relationship and then like, don’t, it’s almost like I don’t feel like I get to be this picky.

Y-yeah…

But here’s the deal, what I’m hearing, Ellie, is that you don’t think you get to want anything.

Ellie Paparone (37:59.968)

Yeah, kind of.

Ellie Paparone (38:04.715)

I shitty.

How does it feel like what’s coming up for you as I said that?

It’s like so weird because like I know for a fact that’s not true, but like it’s fact first feeling.

Well, you know what might help is to put it in context. Why might it be totally understandable that you do not give yourself permission to want what you want? How might that be totally understandable given your context, how you were raised, what you’ve experienced? Tell me.

Yeah.

Ellie Paparone (38:40.93)

I think the context is that like anytime I’ve really wanted someone, I’ve never gotten them. So, and I’ve ended up hurt and sad and have been bruised. And so I think like, then yeah, that’s totally understandable.

Yeah, it’s totally understandable why you would protect yourself in that way.

Yeah, it is protecting myself.

Yeah, it’s very similar to, I mean, it’s a maladaptive coping mechanism. So meaning it’s very understandable because it’s how you’ve coped and it’s maladaptive because it’s not a pattern that’s serving you.

Lily @ Date Brazen (39:25.706)

And we have a ton of those in our lives, right? I can think of some in my own life in my friendships, right? Of like how I sometimes bend over backwards in order to sort of gain more affection or gain more like belonging in my maladaptive coping mechanism brain. And my job in my life is to create emotional safety enough to stand on my own two feet.

own that my relationships are a safe place to be, that I don’t have to make myself smaller or shrink myself in order to belong in them, the right people will come and the wrong people will fall away. That’s the, I mean, it’s with all relationships, not just dating, in which this is life work to move from maladaptive to really thriving patterns of behavior where you are in the driver’s seat.

So if we went back to, don’t get to want anything, what would it mean about you in this current state of your brain? Don’t give me the like, I call it the Sunday school answer, what you think the Sunday school teacher wants to hear, what you think the teacher wants to hear. Tell me like from your gut, what would it mean about you if you did have standards and preferences? What would go wrong then?

just wouldn’t.

Ellie Paparone (40:47.502)

I don’t get to have that.

Why?

Ellie Paparone (40:55.148)

I don’t know and I think that’s what we were talking about before where my brain answers the way I look because there has to be an answer. But my why is just based on my past or lack thereof.

Yeah.

Lily @ Date Brazen (41:14.424)

Sounds like there’s a lot of grief here.

an interesting word for it.

Amongst other things, but does that resonate with you that there’s like grief here?

Yeah, I think like to grieve like, I don’t know, like sometimes I’m like, I never got to do this. Like I was never, I’ve never been pursued and like you see a rom-com or I don’t know, hear like a cue, a meet cue and I’m like, I never, I never got that. And yeah, it stinks. And I think there’s grief in that for sure.

Yeah, yeah. think that for a lot of people who feel like late bloomers, it’s a timeline grief.

Ellie Paparone (41:54.976)

Yeah, for sure. Especially with wanting children.

Yeah, yeah. That’s very normal.

And I think that the world hasn’t done us any favors in terms of like learning how to process and move through our feel big feelings specifically. So I think for a lot of people who feel like late bloomers that grief can get kind of stuck. And the brain’s logical conclusion is it’s over because grief is a story. Grief is telling you a lot of stories. There’s grief in the room. might be shame.

in the room, it hasn’t happened, it must be how I look, God, shame, does that resonate? Shame is a hijacking emotion, it is very difficult, painful, literally painful, can be, to process and move through and to acknowledge, and a lot of people have been taught, I was taught, feelings are too big, you’re get swallowed whole by them, if you feel them, then they’re gonna take over, and you’re gonna be this like, griefy, wallowy, shamey.

Totally.

Lily @ Date Brazen (43:02.158)

and nobody’s gonna want, then it’s like, nobody’s gonna wanna be around you, because you have all these hard feelings, but that narrative keeps you stuck.

And so I think that the way, I mean, the way to process these feelings, I teach it in main character dating every single day, is with some very simple tools. So I teach this thing called how to feel anything. It’s essentially the scale of emotional granularity and self-compassion sort of rolled into one, but it’s sort of a framework to process feelings. So let’s, are you open to doing it for a moment, Ellie, with me? Absolutely. Okay, great. So feet on the floor.

Take a deep breath. Close your eyes. I’m not looking at you.

Do you notice where you have sensation in your body right now?

Ellie Paparone (43:56.6)

Guess by… No, I don’t.

You don’t? Okay. So just breathe into your body, do a little scan, and notice if when we’re talking about like grief or shame, is there any location in your body where you feel tense or tight or loose or anything that sparks for you?

I absolutely get a pit in my stomach. And I feel like there’s some tension in my head too.

Okay, which is more intense?

My stomach for sure.

Lily @ Date Brazen (44:33.506)

Yeah, so breathe into it.

Lily @ Date Brazen (44:38.028)

I’m going to just say some words. You don’t have to repeat them out loud. You can just let them wash over you. There two thoughts by Coach Simone Sol. First is, hey, I am willing to feel anything to be with you.

second thought, hey, Ellie, there is nothing that you could say, do, or feel that would make me want to stop being your friend. Nothing is a deal breaker.

Breathe into that pit in your stomach and just we’re giving you permission to feel it and knowing that this moment is gonna end. We’re gonna come back into the room in a second. for now, breathe into it and I want you to tell me like, does it have a shape?

Ellie Paparone (45:28.238)

It feels like a, honestly like a perfect spear.

Yeah. Does it have a color?

Caniella.

Mm-hmm. Keep breathing into it. I’m willing to feel anything to be with you. Does that have temperature?

warm not hot

Lily @ Date Brazen (45:52.238)

Yeah. Does it have a texture?

Smith.

You breathing into it, how big is it?

big enough to fit my hands.

Lily @ Date Brazen (46:06.348)

Yeah, so I would ask you to just like keep breathing into it and imagine yourself, like your adult, wise, amazing self, like going and just sitting with that feeling. You’re literally just sitting with it and it knows that you will be there as long as you need it to be.

Lily @ Date Brazen (46:30.331)

breathing into it? Has it shifted at all since we’ve been paying attention to it?

Ellie Paparone (46:37.848)

So it’s just become more obvious.

Mmm, okay.

What else do you notice about it?

Ellie Paparone (46:53.048)

doesn’t have feeling. I have the feeling and it’s just an object.

Lily @ Date Brazen (47:03.736)

So what else do you notice in your body right now?

I, in my body, I’ve like leaned towards it, leaned towards it, excuse me. I could see it in front of me and I’m noticing that my shoulders have started leaning towards it. Okay.

Has it changed in size at all since I’ve been paying attention?

Now it feels a little smaller.

Yeah, if you tune in with your body right now as opposed to when we first, when you first closed your eyes, how would you describe the feeling and how it shifted from the pit in your stomach feeling to where you are right now?

Ellie Paparone (47:45.162)

I don’t have a pit in my stomach, and…

I see the pit in my stomach but I don’t have it.

So we’re about to come back into the room, so take one more big deep breath.

Thank your body for showing up and giving you this information and allowing you to be vulnerable enough to share and be honest with yourself and me. And look at your fingers and toes are coming back to the room.

Lily @ Date Brazen (48:19.276)

How was that for you, Ellie?

It was interesting. I’m not really like a meditator. I wish I was. it felt like meditative, which is a different experience for me.

Cool, meditation does not have to be, mindfulness does not have to be like five minutes, 10 minutes. That was maybe two minutes. And it was just you slowing down using this skill of emotional granularity, which is a tool coined by Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett, where she found that the more emotion words you have to describe your experience, the more adequately you can move through said experience. And we were using self-compassion to just like be on that park bench next to you.

If we were, if I was to ask you again, like.

What would it be like to want what you want? What would your answer be now after sort of expanding and feeling those feelings?

Ellie Paparone (49:16.302)

I think my answer now would be like, it’s freeing.

Cool.

Yeah.

Do you hear? mean, that’s pretty cool. Like I have a bit of a chill. Like you, you did not seem to be open to that possibility because it felt kind of dangerous, I perceive. And then you slowed down and paid attention to the feelings instead of trying to logic your way out of them. Yeah. And once you did that, the counterintuitive thing that happened is that you felt freer to want what you want.

Yeah.

Ellie Paparone (49:50.936)

Yeah.

What’s coming up for you?

It’s just like so I, it’s like so clear now that my blockade is nothing more than feelings. And like, I’ve just seen it as this like, I’ve seen it as this just like physical thing or this answer. And I’ve asked people, what is it? And it’s my feelings.

It’s the fear of feeling a feeling.

because of the assumption that that feeling will mean something about you.

Lily @ Date Brazen (50:28.31)

If I feel shame, then I am bad, right? That’s what shame is telling you. If I feel grief, then it is over. When these are just vibrations in your body, bodily functions literally like poop, their bodily functions got to pass them, otherwise you’re gonna be constipated and miserable and stuck in the late Bloomer shame story of like, it’s over, you’re just having hard feelings that you have the skills now.

You got

Lily @ Date Brazen (50:54.318)

to acknowledge, breathe into, and pass to create more emotional freedom for yourself to imagine, to dream, to try new things.

Ellie Paparone (51:05.26)

Yeah, that feels, it just feels, mean, what’s what feelings come with freedom, excitement, hope.

thoughts.

Lily @ Date Brazen (51:14.686)

I love it. I love it. So you haven’t actually tried wanting what you want yet. True or false? Don’t actually know what’s going to happen when you do. You’ve been assuming that you can’t because it would mean that nobody would be out there, but you actually haven’t tried my way.

True.

Lily @ Date Brazen (51:35.336)

You haven’t actually been the decider because you thought that being a late bloomer meant that you couldn’t be when it’s actually the opposite.

You’re not gonna settle, yeah. You’re not gonna settle for the wrong relationship. So why not try wanting what you want?

Ellie Paparone (52:00.556)

Yeah. I mean, if I’m not settling and I’m also if I’m not settling long term, but I am settling short term, how’s that going to find a long term?

Yeah, 100%. So this is about subtle proofing the short term to attract the long term. Okay. We’re coming to the end of our session, but I’m really excited about what you have been able to experience in the last, like literally just hour. This is just one hour and it’s just a snapshot of what’s possible when you pay close attention to how you’re feeling, thoughts, not facts.

Yeah.

Lily @ Date Brazen (52:41.528)

when you engage self-compassion, when you get into sort of a what else could be possible space after caring for your nervous system in this way.

Lily @ Date Brazen (52:54.862)

because you get to want what you want. I think there’s a lot here. It’s like a lot of matrix of like appearance thoughts and all of that. But here’s what I want you to do. After this session, I want you to do a thought dump of all of the thoughts that you’re having about your appearance, about your dating future, about what’s possible, like whatever, all the dating thoughts that you’re having, sticky, mean to yourself, put them on paper. Look at them as like, okay, wow.

I’m having a lot of hard thoughts instead of, shit, here’s more evidence of my undesirability or like here’s evidence that it’s not gonna happen. Thoughts not facts, yeah? Put them on paper. Then I want you to run them through a practice that I call SOFT, S, self-compassion. So based on our conversation, what might self-compassion say to one of those thoughts that feels hottest to the touch? O, own your needs. What do you need? Do you need to lay on the floor?

Do you need to take a deep breath? Do you need to go on a walk? If you’re having anxiety, that’s the body asking for movement. Like, what do you physically need? Do you need to text your therapist? Like, what do you need? List it out. Do one of those things. F, feel your feelings. That thought from the thought dump will trigger feelings. It’s your job to do a two minute how to feel anything. Where is it in my body? Okay, I’m willing to feel anything to be with you. There’s nothing I could say to or feel that would make me want to stop being my friend.

what color, texture, feel it for two minutes. Then go to thoughts not facts. The final step in this process, taking that default thought, what default thought do you want to rewrite or start rewriting after this session do you think about your appearance, about your dating future, about wanting what you want? Like what do you want to start rewriting?

where to start, about, I would say that it’s not too late for me.

Lily @ Date Brazen (54:43.79)

Okay, so your current thought is, it is too late. Yes. Okay, so we’re not going to jump to, it’s not too late because that’s inaccessible. Okay, thoughts not facts is in the words of Karl Lowenthiel, who’s a colleague and friend of mine, up the ladder of thoughts. So if up here at the top of the ladder was, it’s not too late, it’s happening, it’s inevitable, it’s coming. And down here was, it is too late. One rung up the ladder is the thought you need to start practicing today, writing everywhere.

one rung out the ladder might be. It might be possible that I don’t know everything yet. It might be possible. And tell me which one. Stop me when it hits. I’m learning something new. That’s just normal.

I’m vulnerable. That’s normal when learning something new. I like that one. Okay, cool. Take it. Good. I’m learning vulnerable. I’m learning something new. You need to practice that. Acknowledge when you’re having the default thought, it’s too late, and catch it in the moment. Practice a moment of self-compassion, and then give the kind reframe. So today, whenever you notice that it’s too late, hand on your heart, take a deep breath, acknowledge it. Hey, I’m having that thought. Compassion makes total sense. I’m here with you.

That’s a good one. Yeah.

Lily @ Date Brazen (55:59.886)

Kind Reframe, I’m just vulnerable, I’m learning something new.

I’m learning how to know that it’s possible. I’m learning how to take the next step. So I want you to practice that all day, every day. You’re going to notice those default thoughts coming up more and more. That’s normal. You need to practice because a thought feels true because you practiced it zillion times. Now it’s time for intentional practice. Just like you went after the career that you wanted, just like you practiced to gain really like ownership over your role. Practice owning what you want in your dating life.

That feels good.

Good, good. So I’m so excited for you. This is just the beginning. And I think that in terms of dating strategy, you’re going to do that media cleanse. Yes. Set the boundaries of the comments section. I would say with your married friends, you mentioned in your application you have a lot of them. I would be curious about how often you talk about your dating life, if it feels supportive to or not. And I would set the intention to make a single friend this summer. Does that sound good?

Absolutely.

Lily @ Date Brazen (57:06.478)

There are ways to do that. Bumble BFF, know? Time left dinners. You could join main character dating. We opened June 17th. There are so many things that you could do to make a new single friend. So media diet, single friend, the SOFT practice that we talked about, and you’ll have this recording that we’ll publish so you can listen to this again. in terms of like next steps, you have what you need.

to start believing that what you want is possible. And I would say practice blessing and releasing more. You mentioned in your application that you had been going on a date with a guy who voted for Trump and that that was a deal breaker for you. Yes. And that it felt hard to bless and release him from your brain.

struggling with? Yeah, it’s not because I am attracted to him and want to spend my life with him. It’s just because he’s nice and he answers messages and he asked me on a date.

Cool. So what do we now know? What are you now going to practice believing about what you want and your preferences after this conversation that you maybe before you didn’t feel emotionally free enough to do or say? Like, what does that sound like for you? What does that boundary look like?

It’s just like so funny, like it was so gray before and now it’s like black and white. no, that’s my preference. I don’t want to be with someone who has different values than me and so I won’t.

Lily @ Date Brazen (58:35.722)

you get to want what you want and values alignment, especially in this day and age is a huge deal. And look, everybody listening, you get to want what you want. But in terms of somebody who voted against the interests of millions of people, know, that’s a deal breaker for me. That would be a deal breaker for me, too. Absolutely. So you get to want what you want. think it’s also interesting that you mentioned that.

some friends kind of like encouraged you to go on the date even when you were unsure. Do you feel like you can set a boundary with those friends? Because it sounds like that was sort of enhancing the scarcity around like, don’t get to want what I want because my friends told me to do this. Like, tell me about that.

Yeah, think it’s more of a like, once I’m able to like identify what I want and my preferences and what I deserve, I think a next clear step is to communicate that to loved ones who will do nothing but support it.

100,000 percent. I’m so proud of you. And I am so excited for you to get in a season of getting what you want because you’re allowing yourself to want it. Like first step in getting what you want is allowing yourself to want it. I truly believe that. And it’s going to change how you show up and it’s going to change the opportunities that you attract. So I’m really excited for you to like really step into this sort of villain, Ellie villain era.

where you’re not hurting anybody by wanting what you want. You’re just living life on your own goddamn terms.

Ellie Paparone (01:00:03.416)

reputation there.

Ellie Paparone (01:00:10.798)

Absolutely.

Okay, so excited to hear updates. Keep us updated and I will talk to you soon. Thank you. I am obsessed with that conversation with Ellie. It was so beautiful to witness her stepping into like, it’s not actually gray, it’s black and white. I get to want what I want. It was so beautiful to hear her go from feeling unsure of her desires and feeling a lot of self blame to really confidently stepping into agency.

Thank you.

Lily @ Date Brazen (01:00:41.434)

and stepping into more power in her dating life, especially. So I’m thrilled for you, Ellie, and I can’t wait to hear your update. And if you wanna go from feeling like a late bloomer to a confident dater who is magnetizing the right people, who is confidently building momentum toward the right relationship, then you’re wanna come to my live free training on June 17th, 2025, called Three Steps to Attract the Right Partner as a Late Bloomer. Inside, I am going to share all of the details

on how to confidently move toward the right relationship, even if you’ve never been in a relationship, even if you’ve only been in one relationship, even if you just got a divorce, come to this room, be in belonging, and start learning the three skills that are gonna take you from feeling so anxious and like you’re behind to confidently stepping toward the desires that you have for your love life, confidently attracting more than you thought possible in your love life.

So go to datebrazen.com slash let’s dash go to get started and register. I cannot wait to see you there. Thanks for listening to the Date Brazen podcast. If you liked this episode, then you’re going to freaking love my book. Thank you more please. It’s my proven step-by-step feminist guide to breaking dumb dating rules and finding love. You can buy it anywhere books are sold and then get a juicy bonus at datebrazen.com slash book.

The bonus is the dating life fix. My top 10 podcast episodes to get unstuck right now. And be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. You’ve got this and I’ve got your back.