This week on The Date Brazen Podcast, I’m bringing you one of my FAVORITE interviews of all time with someone I’ve admired for years:

It’s a powerful, joy-filled, and deeply necessary conversation with writer, actor, podcaster, and sexual wellness advocate Brandon Kyle Goodman. You might know Brandon from Big Mouth, Human Resources, Abbott Elementary, or their iHeart podcast Tell Me Something Messy, where they break down sexual shame one hilarious, raw, and honest conversation at a time.

In this episode, Brandon and I dive into how societal norms shape our identities—especially in dating and relationships—and how we can break free from those constraints. We talk about the revolutionary power of self-permission, why curiosity is the antidote to shame, and what it really means to embrace the messiness of self-discovery.

If you’ve ever felt like you needed to get it right before putting yourself out there, this episode is your permission slip to do it messy, ask better questions, and claim your desires with confidence.

Who would you be if society never got its hands on you? That’s the question Brandon invites us all to sit with—so let’s get into it.

Hit play now, and let me know what resonates with you!

Brandon Kyle Goodman (they/them) is a writer, actor, and sexual wellness advocate. They’re best known for their work on Netflix’s smash hit and Emmy nominated animated comedy series Big Mouth and its spin-off Human Resources; Amazon’s Modern Love, Hulu’s Plus One, and ABC’s Abbot Elementary. Goodman is also a co-host of the new E! network awards season after show “RE!CAP”. And every Thursday you can hear episodes of their iHeart podcast Tell Me Something Messy; a sex-positive show with the intention of destroying shame around sex by talking about sex.

Connect with Brandon:

Instagram

Website

✉️ Messy Mondays Substack

️ Tell Me Something Messy Podcast

 

This episode is brought to you by my free, on-demand training:  3 Steps to Attract the Right Partner as a “Late Bloomer” – RSVP HERE ✨

 

Links:

Get Lily’s Book, Thank You More Please HERE.

 

Follow Lily on Instagram and Tiktok.

 

Subscribe to Lily’s Youtube channel HERE. 

Show transcript:

Lily Womble (00:05.454)

Hey, I’m Lily Womble, former top matchmaker and founder of Date Brazen. After setting up hundreds, I realized that with coaching, women could match themselves better than anyone else ever could. With my unconventional feminist approach, I’ve helped women around the world build courageous and self-trust-filled love lives, and now I’m here to support you. Get ready, because I’m about to share the exact steps you need to attract a soul-quenching partnership and feel amazing about yourself along the way. This is the Date Brazen podcast. Y’all?

We have a treat of treats today. My gorgeous friends, today we have Brandon Kyle Goodman. They are a writer, actor, and sexual wellness advocate. They are best known for their work on Netflix’s smash hit and Emmy nominated animated comedy series, Big Mouth, no big deal. And it’s spin-off Human Resources, Amazon’s Modern Love, Hulu’s Plus One, and ABC’s Abbott Elementary.

Goodman is also a co-host of the new E Network Awards season after show, Recap. And every Thursday you can hear episodes of their iHeart podcast, Tell Me Something Messy, a sex positive show with the intention of destroying shame around sex by talking about sex. They are the author of the beautiful book, You Gotta Be You, How to Embrace This Messy Life and Step Into Who You Really Are. And Brandon goes by they, pronouns. Welcome, Brandon.

Thank you, I’m so happy to be here.

So glad you’re here. I shot my shot in the DMs and here we are

Brandon Kyle Goodman (01:31.65)

I know I loved it because I’ve reposted one of your videos which I love about collaborating in relationships like Preach that to everywhere. I want that, you know on an air horn across the fucking globe and then you message I was like absolutely let’s talk

exciting. And our books are both through legacy lit, which is a great imprint. And I felt like a really real connection to you. And I have looked up to you and admired you and your work for literal years. So I’m so excited to be here talking to you. And I have a bazillion questions. OK, the opener to your book in the introduction and in the book, Dust Jacket.

Let’s jump in. I’m so excited.

Lily Womble (02:14.944)

is the question, who would I be if society never got its hands on me? And just to give you a little lay of the land with like, who’s listening to this podcast? It’s mostly single badasses who are feminists striving to be intersectional, who also don’t think that a relationship is necessary to be whole. And they probably want one as well. Sure. Both hand, a lot of people that listen because I attract these folks because I was a late bloomer feel like late bloomers.

Mm.

Lily Womble (02:44.286)

feel may feel behind and so this question of like what if society never got its hands on me is pretty i get a pt a pussy tingle at that question it’s a big one

Tell me when did you start asking yourself that question?

Yeah, that was in 2020. You know, we were navigating, you know, obviously COVID, but even more personal was the Black Lives Matter. know, George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery, among so many. And I was doing these videos about race, about gender, sexual orientation, about their intersection specifically, about allyship, co-conspiracy, like being a co-conspirator more than an ally.

And I don’t know how that question came up, but it was in asking people to reflect on who they are so they can show up better in support of their communities, specifically for black folks and black queer folks. I was also interrogating myself, like who are the communities that I can show up for? I’m in this male body. There’s privilege there. So what are the communities, my trans friends, my asexual friends, women, like how can I show up for them?

And then that just started getting me thinking about like, what are these boxes that we’re in and what are these labels of our identity and how did we get them and why are we performing based off of our gender or race or our sexual orientation? Like, what are these requirements and who put them on us? And it was like, society, right? Like, we’re just watching it. I’m a TV writer. I’m in, you know, one of the most powerful, you know, propaganda machines, which is Hollywood, which is telling you

Brandon Kyle Goodman (04:29.848)

who you should be, who you shouldn’t be, what you should look like, what you shouldn’t look like. And it was just like, who would I be if society never got its hands on me? Like, who would I be if I wasn’t told this is how I should perform or this is how I should act or this is what is, you know, correct for me? And that just, I didn’t have an answer, I just had the question, but it felt like a really important question to pose for myself and for others.

Yeah. And there’s one thing which is like having the question roll around in your brain, which I think most people can resonate with like, okay, have questions all the time if I’m paying attention. then it’s the, what am I going to do about it? That you took with you. You know what I’m saying? That which is sort of abnormal in our world that is telling us to be busy at the expense of being honest and true. a world that is actively socializing.

folks of marginalized identities, especially to like not trust themselves. So tell me about, do you remember one of the first shifts you made when you started asking yourself that question?

It was probably coming into my non-binary identity, honestly, because as I said, as I was like, well, what are the groups or the communities that I can use my privilege towards? you know, we were writing on Big Mouth and we had talked about having a non-binary character for a while or an asexual character for a while, which we eventually did get that on the show. But I was like, really, I felt committed to that. I was like, yeah, we should have an asexual character on the show.

I was like, what is it to be ace? Like, I don’t know if I have any asexual friends in my immediate community. I don’t know. They’re part of LGBTQIA, and I feel like I don’t know anything about the A. So I started doing research on the asexual community, and then I started doing more research on the trans community and the non-binary community. And as I was watching all these videos of, you know, people talking about their experiences, specifically non-binary folks, I felt so seen by it.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (06:35.758)

And I like so connected to it and the experiences that they were describing of their childhood, their adulthood, how they felt just, I started weeping. I was like sitting in front of this computer that I’m talking to you on, just like weeping. Cause I was like, Oh my God, that’s me. And so that was like the shift, which was like, Oh, I never allowed myself to even consider that there might be another version of my existence. Um, because I understood that I was a man.

And that was it. That was a boy. I was a man. He him. And that was it. I never considered that maybe there were other options. never considered that people told me I was a boy. You know, my family told me I was a boy. My family took pride in me being a boy and me being a man. But maybe that isn’t true. Or maybe it is true. And that’s the point of the question is like, you might ask the question and discover I am exactly who the fuck I want to be.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (07:33.294)

You might at least you’ll find that in certain pockets of your life But then there are other pockets where you might go. shit. Actually, I don’t want that I don’t care to be married or I don’t know if it matters to me to have children or I don’t know if I want to live in this city or in this country like what are the things you’re like I have to do this and you’re like actually my parents told me that or my teachers told me that or my favorite TV show told me that but that

isn’t actually true for my soul.

I think it’s this culture of self-permission that you’re describing and that is so not taught, you know, like and I I listen

On purpose, by the way.

Say more on that. I totally cosigned. Say more, say more.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (08:23.502)

I’ve been thinking about like a society that is empowered to love themselves is not profitable. If we as a society love who we are, how can they sell us makeup? How can they sell us fashion? How can they sell us furniture? Right? If you look at how we are sold things, it is you are missing something. You need this to be what I call your ABVs, acceptance, belonging, validation.

So if we were like, no, I’m enough as I am, and I’m actually pretty chill, suddenly you’re not as susceptible to purchasing one. And there’s also, as we can see in our country right now, a group of people who are very interested in maintaining their power. And so if you have autonomy,

If you love who you are, if you respect who you are, if you value your community, if you come together in community, you will topple the small group that wants to hold power over you. Their power over you is by keeping you blind to your power. By making you think that you have to have somebody. You need a leader. You need somebody to lead you. You need somebody to tell you who you are. You need somebody to… And we see that in…

We see it in church, we see it in the government, know, or people. Antic relationships, yes, where you just blindly attach yourself to somebody and stop asking questions.

romantic relationship.

Lily Womble (09:55.438)

Right. So many yeses in my body. was like, If I wanted this audio recording to be bad, I would be talking over you with the yeses. No, I talk about the reason why I have a job, unfortunately, is because women and people socialized as women are taught from a very young age to settle.

Yes!

Brandon Kyle Goodman (10:07.148)

Hahaha

Brandon Kyle Goodman (10:22.317)

Yes.

in a lot of ways, not just in romance. And so I don’t have a job because everybody loves themselves and feels like they don’t have to settle and they can ask for exactly what they want. I have a job because when I was a kid, I was told that I was too much that I was gonna have a hard time finding a husband at age 12.

Lily Womble (10:44.238)

I knew that that was bullshit is this like young raging feminist and also that it was a life sentence of loneliness through that cultural perspective And so I do think that this like culture of self-pervasion is really revolutionary and upsets the status quo

Yes.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (11:00.846)

Yes, absolutely. It does. But also, like, I just want to take a moment and say, like, how gross is it that we tell children, you’ll never find a man if you don’t buy it out or you look to this or it’s like it’s It’s vile and.

That’s why I asked the question, who would you be if I never got it? It’s hands-on you because a lot of it happened in the playground. I always use the example of my nose. I have this, what I call a beautiful strong nose. I am obsessed with, but as a kid I was told my nose was too big. And so then I started having fantasies of one day when I’m older, I’m going to, you know, get my nose done, which there’s nothing wrong with plastic surgery, do whatever makes you happy. What I am saying is make sure it’s because you want that, not because somebody on the playground or your, you know,

dysfunctional family told you that something was wrong with you. And I think a lot of us, we never go back to the point of trauma, to the point of impact, to see, who caused that impact? And what were they going through? And am I really gonna believe that seven year old who told me that I look good? Like, am I gonna believe that adult who was already struggling in their own shit and had the nerve to project that onto me as a child?

the person I want to trust? Probably not. Probably not. But a lot of us are. And then we’re just kind of going by rote. know, we’re following a script that isn’t ours. And so that question of who would I be if society never got its hands on me is to interrupt the script so that you can write your own.

It’s sort of like inside out in that all of those voices that are telling us who we are are sort of a collection of a culture that was not created by us. And the culture of self permission that you’re talking about, mean, culture change is very difficult. It takes time. It takes examination. It takes a value center centeredness. And, um, I remember, you know, I was really inspired by you. One of your latest episodes of your podcast, tell me something messy. Everybody go listen.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (12:46.157)

Yes.

Lily Womble (13:04.558)

with ER Fightmaster.

Yes, love them

when they gave you the book. my God. I was just thinking and I’m going to we’re going to talk about sex. I and I say that because why do my parents still listen to this podcast?

So.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (13:22.34)

Hi parents.

And then so so ER is talking about how shameful it was for them or how shameful it was or they were taught that like getting wet was shameful like girls in their in their school or people in their school were being taught and I remember that feeling of shame when I like I cuddled with a boy in ninth grade on the charter bus going from Alabama to New York City to March and then Macy’s Day Parade. What an iconic

my

Experience and we I will not say his name Moons in this to see as ninth graders when I tell you

My ninth grade, that was everything. Oh my god, that was everything.

Lily Womble (14:09.612)

So I go to the bathroom because I feel weird and I never was taught to masturbate. I was actually taught that it was wrong. I didn’t masturbate until I was 18, Brandon. wow. I thought that my like if we talk about sexual shame, my orgasm was tied to dry humping with my evangelical love weights boyfriend.

Wow.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (14:36.046)

It’s like, it’s always mind boggling how trapped and caged we are and that it’s not our fault, right? You have to give yourself grace, but like, it’s like, we are taught, especially as a vulva owner, right? Taught to be disgusted by yourself. It’s like the pussy is why we’re all here. Like, I’m sorry, we all came through that.

You know?

I’m a C-section baby, but look at, all like, the pussy is powerful, right? So like the idea that we should then turn around and be disgusted by it or afraid of it or ashamed of it is wild and also calculated, right? It’s calculated. It keeps you in your quote unquote place.

Wild.

Lily Womble (15:22.988)

And it can be, you know, we can blow that up to everything, especially with like romance, love, sex, like be disgusted by yourself. If you are a vulva owner, don’t ask for what you want in the bedroom or in your dating life, because then you’re too much and you’ll turn the people off. Just like, just, just be happy and be, be satisfied that somebody wants to on a date with you.

Yes.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (15:43.426)

Yes, to your point earlier, just settle.

So I remember going in the bathroom in the bus and being like something’s wrong with me because in seventh grade in the Alabama abstinence only sex education state sanctioned culture. I they had this educator quote unquote come in who was like this 22 year old white brunette who took a piece of clear packing tape put it on her arm said this is you before you have sex clean and clear and then she put it on her arm and took it off and was like.

Here’s you after you have sex, you’re dirty. And see your future husband, he’s clean and clear before he has sex. put it on her arm. take it off her arm. He’s dirty now, skin cells, hair, hair. She put the pieces of tape together. See, they don’t stay married because they chose to have sex before.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (16:32.91)

This should be locked up! The lies! The scam!

sanctioned education. I’m sure that was written into.

I’m sure criminal. Criminal behavior. Jail. Under the jail. Immediately.

So when I went to the bathroom and realized I was first of all like what the fuck is up with my body? I don’t know what this is coming from my vagina. I felt immediate same and I said I didn’t really curse the time. In fact, iconically, I started the anti-cursing club in fifth grade. Bragg.

Come on, queen!

Lily Womble (17:07.694)

I shit, shit, shit in the bathroom. Again, very not like me. And then I came out the next day, this young man told the whole band that I had, like, he didn’t want to cuddle with me, that he felt sorry for me and that he was… So then it was like this inter- confluence of like sexual shame, rejection. And I think it’s unfortunately really relatable that…

A lot of these experiences of sexual awakening have a lot of shame attached and then also like people being so shitty and then so coming into again coming back to the central question, who is society be if it never got its hands on me in terms of your sexual liberation? It is so difficult to untangle those vines.

It is. It’s a web. It’s like when a bunch of your cords get tangled together and trying to un-pull that apart. It is. And I think that’s why a lot of people don’t do it. And I always have to remind people that with growth comes grief, first of all. So no matter what, when you are on the journey to grow, you will grieve. And if you can accept that, there will be loss.

Yeah.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (18:24.462)

One, that’ll help you out. But two, that the discomfort is temporary. What you are going through is a temporary discomfort that can lead to everlasting peace. So yes, I’m gonna promise you that up top it’s gonna be uncomfortable as fuck to start working on that, you know, dethroning those chords. But at the end of it, you got a bunch of nicely laid out chords. You can see where they are, you can place where they are, you can give them your own section, and now you got some peace, yeah?

Or you can just kind of keep the cord in its ball and then every time you need one, it’s a stress, it’s a journey. It’s like, you know, so either you can maintain yourself in that dysfunction for the rest of your life or you can get about the business of growing, of grieving and of finding your peace.

Brandon, people at home are like, my God, yes, this feels like bomb to the soul and how. I want to shout out you do shout out therapy in your book and you give people questions to ask their therapist if they feel like, I don’t know what the fuck to do. What else? Right? Like, what would you recommend? What does sexual liberation mean to you? Big question. Yeah. And if someone feels like they’re just starting that journey, how

And how?

Brandon Kyle Goodman (19:31.874)

Yes.

Lily Womble (19:43.49)

how would you suggest a first step?

Well, the first thing I say about therapy is I also recognize that therapy is a privilege, right? And there’s there’s financials attached to it. And so that may not always be where we’re able to go. So other options would be group therapy. Obviously, you might also do some legwork and there are therapies, therapists who have sliding skills. But then also there is the Internet. Now, be careful who you’re looking at. But like finding the resources in the videos, there are books, you know, there are there are people who are writing about

various topics and we are seeing, know, luckily that, you know, the authors are diversifying in terms of what we’re talking about and who’s talking about what. you know, doing a little research and finding the books or finding the podcasts or finding the, you know, YouTube videos or the documentaries with people who are speaking your language. I call it for myself. There are times where I’ll say I’m spending a night with my ancestors and my elders. And that’s literally me just watching old interviews of Maya Angelou or

Toni Morrison or James Baldwin or reading Nikki Giovanni, right? It’s just like, there are people who’ve been through versions of what you’re experiencing. Find them, find them. So you don’t always have to spend your money on that therapist. There are people who have written about what they’ve experienced and just having that shared knowing can be calming and can give you a little bit of light in the dark. So that’s the first thing I’ll say about that. How you begin, what sexual liberation means to me is

little to do about how much you fuck, very little, and more to do with how much, curious you are and compassionate you are and how you communicate. So I on the show and in life call myself a hoe and I spell it H-E-A-U-X. And I define it as someone who commits to the sexual liberation of themselves and others by thoughtfully interrogating their relationship to sex using curiosity, communication and compassion.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (21:41.464)

So that’s also sexual liberation to me is the willingness to ask the question, to be like, what don’t I know? What do I know? What do I like? What was I taught? How was I taught? Is that still true for me? Does that resonate for me? What do I think I deserve? What kind of sex do I like? Don’t I like? You will not have all the answers, but the fact that you’re questioning is stirring up that gumbo. And then you’re going to start.

to smell and taste it and be like, oh, it needs a little more pepper. It needs a little more salt. It needs a little more of this. Oh, I don’t need that much of that. You know, like you just need to start stirring up the gumbo so that you can understand what’s even what you’re even working with. And I think so many of us don’t. And so we are prisoner to our ignorance, prisoner to our obliviousness instead of getting free. And you get free by asking questions. That’s why people that’s why I like on like a on like a political level.

They don’t like people who ask questions. It’s not people who like talk, it’s the people who are asking questions and who are saying, why you do that? What’s that about?

Where’d you get that information from? Why’d you ask?

For me, sure. They don’t like that. I just, they don’t like that, right? So questions are very, very powerful. And so that to me, and sexual liberation also, you know, I talking to my best friend, doesn’t mean anything goes, right? There is still, there is still human decency, right? We were talking, I was talking to somebody about like how somebody’s one friend’s ex-boyfriend’s friend started making out with him at a party. And we were just like, that’s not liberation, babe.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (23:17.934)

That is actually fucked up. That’s boundary crossing and that is not sexual liberation. Sexual liberation does not mean anything goes. There’s still decency, there’s still compassion, there’s integrity, there’s ethics, there are morals, know, but sexual liberation is like, want to know who I am as a sexual being and I want to love who I am as a sexual being. As Emily Nagoski says, who I am as a sexual being deserves to exist.

Boundaries crossing.

Lily Womble (23:46.435)

I the Nagoski sisters work. my god. Come as you are. out.

Incredible incredible incredible shoes on the podcast and we just like deep dived and it was Heaven but yes, I’m not amazing deserves to exist was one of the gifts that she left with us and and I Carry it with my carry it close to my heart

And something that I really appreciate being taught in sort of adding on to this, I have a colleague and friend, Dr. Julianne Hauser, who is a sex therapist and she says desire is our birthright. And this idea that also this gift of knowledge that you can change and change your mind and evolve and grow when you just ask yourself questions. And it doesn’t mean that

you have to be super kinky to be sexually liberated. You might discover that you want to go to Folsom Street Fair, but you may not. And just to ask the question is so powerful.

Yeah, you know, also the sexual liberation piece for me is that there’s no judgment, which is, you know, what my messy Mondays on my podcast is built on. People will tell me, I’ll give you the extreme. People might have a scat.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (25:02.51)

A scat kink, which is, know, a shit kink. That’s like, that’s not for me, but I’m also not going to turn up my nose at you or be disgusted by you, right? Like I recognize that like, as long as you not hurt yourself, anybody else, whatever your kinks are, whatever your desires are, whether they’re super vanilla or the most extreme, I don’t have to judge that. And if you are, because somebody might have turned up their nose at the scat kink. If you are judging that, it’s probably a reflection about how you judge yourself.

how you’re critical about yourself. When we’re criticizing somebody else, the way we’re criticizing them is probably a reflection of how we’re criticizing ourselves, right? So there’s a fear of our own things. It’s like, me get ahead of somebody judging me for my desires and judge that desire. Let me show you that I think that’s disgusting too, right?

I think in an unconscious effort to self-protect potentially from the vulnerability of admitting what we actually want.

Yes, because beneath, let me say this, this is, I might be processing this in real time.

Say everything you have on your brain, Brandon.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (26:07.286)

Beneath this and I’m using the scat kink on purpose because I know it’s an extreme beneath what might be your sexual disgust around that is that that person or those people who engage in that are experiencing quite the level of freedom and Sometimes we get really Tense when we see people experiencing freedom that we want for ourselves I’m not saying you want to experience the scat king, but you want your own freedom

Hmmmm

Brandon Kyle Goodman (26:36.642)

and you haven’t been able to attain it, but other people have. And so there’s a judge. We see that with hateful people all the time, right? Emily also give this where it’s like, you see somebody who is trans and you are upset at them because they are living free and you’re not able to live for yourself. So how dare they live out their truth? How dare they express themselves, how they see fit and do it successfully and be loved.

and be received and be revered. How dare that happen? And you have played small and have robbed yourself. And so instead of doing the hard work, which is to go, how do I get myself free? You do the easy thing and you judge, you get critical. You become aggressive, you become abrasive. I would never do that. I could never understand that. is, I would, like, that’s the energy that starts to come up. And so when you feel that coming up,

And context is everything, right? Like if Trump says something, you’re allowed to get angry. But context is everything. But around these things, around these kind of like life things, these identity things, if you start to feel yourself get tense with somebody who is not hurting you, who’s not doing anything to harm you or take away something from you, they are not hurting themselves or anybody else, but you are getting this aggressive reaction, then to me, that is the time to

look in the mirror and say, what’s really going on here? What am I really upset about?

Curiosity over judgment. remember again taking it back to my masturbation days. I’m sorry. Not sorry I feel my one of my closest friends when we were in high school said like I am like sitting in the bathtub and Sitting underneath the stream of water and I am masturbating and I judged the shit out of her Yeah, and I said, are you really like that’s that’s gross. my god why? Exactly what you’re saying her pleasure

Brandon Kyle Goodman (28:09.632)

Curiosity.

Lily Womble (28:38.784)

was a threat to my repression.

So you thought, right? You thought you were repressing.

Well, was Repression. I was repressed. Yes. Yes. And it felt safe to be repressed because I wanted to belong at my church. I wanted to belong with, you know, a group that I thought safety belonged in. But really, she was liberated.

She was liberated, she was free. And then you were enacting, because again, who would I be if society never got its hands on me? Who told you to judge that? Yes! So you are doing the work of other people. That’s not even your true beliefs. Because you were to like get down and sit down and get into it, you’re like, actually, my girl, that’s my best friend and she’s

Maybe I will be.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (29:22.24)

Maybe I’m in the bathtub too?

Couldn’t figure out how it worked physically. I was like I tried I couldn’t figure out the positioning as I was like This is very odd positioning. You know told me that masturbation was bad when I was 17. Oh my therapist Who was a Christian therapist there are a lot of people who should not be licensed first of all second of all Said why don’t you take a cold bath?

Yeah

So anyway, not to bring it back to me because I just I just feel so but I feel really like it really aligned with every single thing that you’re saying, of course, I just think you’ve spent so much time what in in in what I call the problem space of this question line of questioning and you have so much to teach, which I think is also so incredible when I think about the world that you live in professionally.

Lily Womble (30:21.61)

in that you’re really unique. In that you’re not only doing the E after awards talk show that is gorgeous in which you are dressed more beautifully than anyone that I know. You also have the podcast, you’re having this conversation, you’re like educating.

Thank you.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (30:36.782)

Ha

Brandon Kyle Goodman (30:46.924)

doing my best. My grandmother was a teacher and I’ve just resigned to the fact that that’s part of my lineage that like she she loved being educators. She became a minister and still educated through that. And it’s like, I think this is part of this part of my lineage and it’s where I feel most useful and where I feel like I can do good. And if we are here to do anything, I think it’s to do good. And so like, find the ways that you can do good. And this

And having these conversations that are so scary and have been historically scary for me and making them feel the same that you’re doing, making them feel relatable, making them feel accessible, making them accessible feels incredibly important and more important than, you know, selling a TV show, know, is telling people that they should get free.

And hopefully both hand.

Yeah, yes, both there, you know, we can do both.

I to get down to the tactical because I talked to a lot of people who Want to be sexually liberated want to feel sexually free and I’m not a dating coach who’s out here saying that you can’t have casual sex While you’re dating to find a partner if you want monogamy especially I want people to like and I think that that’s a message that a lot of folks get on the dating streets Which is like if you’re serious about finding a partner

Brandon Kyle Goodman (31:48.674)

multi-hyped it you

Brandon Kyle Goodman (32:14.924)

Stop doing this.

doing the casual. Okay, so what I think helps people create emotional safety around taking risks for their pleasure and risks being like a term that must be put in context of emotional and physical safety. RISKS BEING shooting your shot, I want to do this, so I’m going to do it. I’m going to ask for consent because I want to do this fun thing that I’ve always wanted to do. How would you recommend people

Yes, yes, yes.

Lily Womble (32:45.486)

define their like casual sex preferences around like here’s how I check in with myself to know if this feels good for me or here’s how I check in with myself to know like actually what I want on a tactical level does that make sense?

Yeah, it does. I think the first thing is to ask yourself and see what comes up. Like, would I like to just fuck somebody randomly right now and see what comes up? And you might hear yes, no, maybe so. And then ask more questions. If it’s a no, ask yourself why not? If it’s a yes, ask yourself why not? If it’s a maybe so, ask yourself why not? I think just like before jumping into the ring, collect data, collect information, gather information for yourself.

Talk to your friend, your community, like community that you trust about it or research about it. why do people, like, it’s okay to research why people like casual sex. I’m sure people have written tons of articles about it, essays about it, written books about it. So just like, you might have an understanding of what casual sex is to you and it might be a very limited understanding of it. And by doing a little research, you might discover that there’s actually a much broader definition because that’s the whole point for the sexual liberation is to build your own blueprint.

We’re so often following somebody else’s blueprint, either one that’s been given to us or something we saw on TV. Everybody wants to be Rachel from Friends. So they want to be, you know, this character from that show. And so we’re following these blueprints that are not ours. They do not work for us. They don’t fit your body. So what works for Brandon does not necessarily work for Lily. So Lily’s job is to figure out what works for her. And she does that by asking the questions, by doing the research, by gathering the information, by asking, you know, more questions.

And then seeing if she could like piece together a couple things that she might want to try and then going about trying. And I think when you do the trying, you do so transparently and I say transparency over honesty. So when I make that, that differentiation, honesty is somebody asks you a question, you offer it transparency is you just say what it is from the top. And I do this with, you know, casual encounters. Somebody says, Hey, I want to hang out. I’ll be like, well,

Brandon Kyle Goodman (34:57.774)

Is it because you want to fuck or you don’t want to fuck? Like, what’s the thing? Or I’m available to do this, but not this, or I’m looking for this and not that. To your video that I love of yours, which is you can’t say the wrong thing to the right person. You just can’t. So if you say the thing and that person gets skittish, they weren’t the person that you wanted to experiment, explore, or get down with in the first place. And we need to know that. And then…

100 %

Brandon Kyle Goodman (35:26.388)

not being afraid of failure.

Hmm

How? It’s the same, you my therapist always says with love comes heartbreak. And I just always keep that in my somewhere in my my system so that I understand that I get to love freely and that heartbreak may happen. And that is part of it. I can’t prevent it. I’m not going to like I can’t stop it. It may happen, but it’s better to love than to not have. Right. So the same is true here. Like failure will happen as you try to figure out what

the kind of sex is, what kind of space is. had a Jessica whose last name is, me, but her handle is remodeled love. She’s a poly educator influencer. And she was talking to me about going to a sex party. And she was like, it’s my space, not my people. She wouldn’t have known that if she hadn’t gone there, but she went to the thing, she experienced it, and she was able to say, okay, like, I like bits of this and bits of it don’t like.

So this is my space, not my people, which means maybe I want to be in a sex party, but I have to find a different community to do it with. That’s valuable information. Yes. You might describe that as a quote unquote failure, but no, you’ve just been you’ve just gathered data. So I think not being afraid to experience something new and not have it be 100 percent correct. This might not be the bullseye, but what can I take from it? What can I learn from it? And how can I take that into my next experience?

Brandon Kyle Goodman (36:53.548)

I fumbled up how I did transparency with this person. What can I learn from that? What can I take to the next person? It’s riding a bike. You don’t just stop because you fell over that first time. You it up, you get on, and you try again.

I think the really dangerous issue for most people, myself included, many times is the shame that we inflict upon ourselves when we fall off the bike, right? Yes. And so I think, you know, I talk about self-compassion being that antidote to help you ride bigger and bigger waves. And does that mean that you won’t crash out sometimes still? You Because you’re riding bigger waves by being liberated and giving yourself that permission and like trying new shit and getting to know your preferences with action.

Yes. And whose shame is that? Really and truly, right? Like that shame was taught to you. So I think when you experience that shame, it’s a beautiful time to go, well, whose is this? Whose voice is this? Who did I really embarrass? Like, I may never see that man again. Who did I really embarrass? Like, who’s really, like, what am I really feeling ashamed about?

And you say this gently. That’s why I say in my definition, it’s gentle interrogation. It’s not with, need an answer or I’m being, it’s gently interrogate, gently be curious. Like whose shame is that? And is that, does that really belong to me? And can I put it down? Is it trying to protect me? And can I say, hey, thank you so much for that protection. I’m actually okay. Actually, I’m actually fine. And then you can take the next step.

Yeah, tell me about okay, so you write in the book and I resonate deeply with this after writing my own book the struggle with perfectionism and like how you tell your story and you like you even wrote in the middle of a chapter like I’m struggling with perfectionism right now and the word messy is in your title. It’s in the title of your podcast. I talk about messy all the time as well. How do you define messy?

Brandon Kyle Goodman (38:51.618)

Yeah, messy is human. But perfectionism is not real. It’s what we attain for. It’s how we feel our worth. I get why I do it. It’s how I learned to protect myself. It’s how I learned to feel like I was worthy, was through perfectionism. And I say it with no jest, like perfectionism is my addiction. think we all have our own addictions and certain ones get more flack than others or more, you know,

huh.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (39:21.26)

Grievance than others, which is unfortunate like we all you can’t be judging somebody with a drug addiction. We all have an addiction And so mine is perfectionism. I am It is something that I that I every day I have to wake up and say girl, it’s okay. It’s all right We don’t it’s not gonna be perfect.

Come back

Come back to yourself. And so this messy brand, if you will, is in full support of that. It helps remind me, you know, I know that I’m helping people, but they’re really helping me. They’re reminding me that it is okay to be messy. It’s human. My definition for messy, you know, I make it a little acronym, which is quite long. So you’re to get it in the book, but I’ll tell you, I’ll give you rate up. you know, messy is, you know, make space to reflect curiously, easy on the judgment.

Surrender the things you cannot change. Save the lessons you can move forward with. Your healing and your growth are your birthright. In all of that is curiosity. It’s the willingness to say, okay, like should happen. I’m gonna think about it. I’m gonna see what I can leave behind. I’m see what I can save and move forward. But I’m gonna also remember that my healing and my growth is mine.

Mmm

Brandon Kyle Goodman (40:41.634)

and I’m allowed to have it, I deserve it. And it doesn’t have to be perfect. I just have to grow, you know, that’s kind of it.

Yeah, yeah, and be willing to be vulnerable in the weird moments.

Yes, yes. Be willing to, you know, be willing to look crazy. Honestly, because again, like, because who like, we get so wrapped up in perception and being perceived and think about like, high school or middle school, you know, we had in my school, I to a boarding school in Rome, Georgia. And we had what was called the school store, which is basically like there’s a cafeteria, but then there was a school store where you get like the pizza and the cookies. But it was all the like, quote unquote, cool kids hung out.

But there was kind of one big door. So if you open that big door, then you have to walk down a runway with cool kids on both sides to get to the counter. Category is is category is shame. There’s the gay kid.

Category is…

Lily Womble (41:48.704)

Open a big door through a runway category.

Oh my God. It’s nuts. But like what would make me feel so small is how I was aware that I was being perceived. Right. was it was the concern with how I’m being perceived and seen that made me shrink myself. And then what you end up realizing is I don’t know. I couldn’t tell you none of those people’s names today. Couldn’t describe it. I? Sure. I’m sure there’s a Nick.

bet one of them was Nick.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (42:22.094)

I’m sure there was a Jack James, a James. I’m sure. I’m sure there’s a Christopher there somewhere. But like, you know, an American, but like it wasn’t, I don’t know who those people are today. I don’t have a relationship today. And so how often do we let people rob us of our light because we’re so concerned about how they’ll see us as opposed to just letting your light shine. And however they see it is how they see it. But like, you don’t stop you from being you.

You don’t shrink yourself. You don’t buckle into yourself. Perception will have you do that all the time. If you are more concerned about how people perceive you, you will never take a chance on yourself. You’ll never take a risk on yourself. You’ll never allow yourself to grow. You’ll stay small so that no one notices and so that they think that you’re this. Fuck those people, babe. The only people that really matter are the people that are your community whose opinions you value and you respect because…

There’s a reciprocity in how y’all pour into each other and you love each other. There’s not a power imbalance here. There’s not a, this person is telling, know, keeping me in my place. There is a way in which my soul lights up when you enter the room.

Mmm.

your soul lights up when I enter the room. Those people, yeah, ask them their opinion. Take their opinions to heart. But everybody else, just because he’s hot or he’s 6’9″, or she’s gorgeous or they’re, you know, whatever, you know, they’re pretty, like, that’s not, don’t stop yourself. Don’t yourself from being you.

Lily Womble (43:53.752)

Yeah. so good, Brandon. So good. 100 plus 100 to everything that you just said. want to ask last question. Worst dating or sex advice that you think is out there that people are following and then best. Take it whichever direction your heart leads you.

think the worst dating advice that’s still out there to me is stuff around and it’s really directed towards women, which is about like, how do I say this? It’s usually around like how much time you should give a person before they should like propose to you. Like stuff around or stuff around bending to how you quote unquote serve your man.

Okay, yeah

Brandon Kyle Goodman (44:45.77)

Anything that’s around being submissive to a man that is not empowered, right? Like I love being dumb sub situations. Love it, honey. That’s kinky and fun. But anything that’s like, you have to do this to make sure your man feels like a man. If he doesn’t propose to you in three months, that’s not your man. Like anything that’s in that, get him to propose to you in nine months or less.

That to me is one, the emphasis becomes on marriage and on wedding, well really and not marriage and not the relationship.

Love is blind fetishization of that end point.

Absolutely, where you’re like, you’re just thinking about getting to the altar, but not thinking about, is this the person that I want to build my life with? Is this the person that I trust with my tax information?

Wow, with my social security.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (45:46.666)

my social security card is that is this the person

Or do I just want to show the world that I’m okay and valuable because a man chose to marry me? Very cishet by the way. Come on!

Absolutely. And by the way, like I say, I want to give grace to that because we are indoctrinated with that. And so we go by default saying, this is what I’m looking for. And so it’s like, I, so whenever I see that kind of thing, if I still, you know, circulating, it’s infuriating because it’s like, no, one, everyone should be empowered, man, women, they should be empowered to choose the relationship they’re in. And one size does not fit all. So telling me that I have to be engaged by it.

a year for it to be real is ridiculous. Marriage is an institution. A relationship that is 20 years, no marriage is just as valuable. In our society, oftentimes the relationship that is two months but married becomes more valuable than the 10 years not married. That’s crazy to me. Worry about the quality of your relationship. Is this the partner? You know, I always like to say relationships should be where two souls can rest together. If we are in this chaotic world,

where there’s a lot of stimulation and a lot of bullshit happening. When I’m in relationship, whether it’s romantic or platonic or familial, I want to feel like our souls can rest together. The rest of it is bullshit. that’s my… The best is honestly, I would give you the credit, that video of like really, your relationships are about co-creating. But you can’t say the wrong thing to the right person. I think that’s fun to mention.

Lily Womble (47:11.95)

Yeah.

Brandon Kyle Goodman (47:28.194)

fundamental and foundational. Because I think that oftentimes dating is like acting, where like actors will often feel like, and this is real industry, but will feel like they don’t have power to whoever casts them. And I always say to my acting students, you have power too. Or even if you’re going in for a job interview, like ask them questions too. Like it’s not just about you getting the job, it’s about whether or not they’re a fit for you too.

So you better show up to that job interview, to that audition with your own questions about how does this business work? How does this, how do y’all manage? What is your style of management? So the same thing in relationships. It’s not just about me being picked. I get to choose as well. Is this the person that I want to be with? Is this the relationship dynamic that works for me? We are co-creating this. We are collaborating on this relationship. I am not in the passenger seat at all. think that’s like the best advice is to remember your power.

Yes, you know remember who the fuck you are and you can’t say the wrong thing the right person. co-create co-collaborate

Brandon, thank you so much for coming on this podcast. This has been the highlight of my year so far.

Thank you so much for having me.

Lily Womble (48:43.096)

Tell the people where they can find you, how they can support your work, how can they get your book. Tell us everything.

So many places, so you can find me on Instagram at Brandon Kyle Goodman. You can find my podcast, Tell Me Something Messy. Wherever you get your podcasts, we also have an Instagram handle. Or my website, BrandonKyleGoodman.com. Or my sub stack where I write BrandonKyleGoodman.substack.com. So one of those places will lead you to all the rest of them.

Yes. Thank you so much for link all that in the description and the show notes. Thank you for coming on.

Thank you for having me.

Lily Womble (49:17.57)

Thanks for listening to the Date Brazen podcast. If you liked this episode, then you’re going to freaking love my book. Thank you more please. It’s my proven step-by-step feminist guide to breaking dumb dating rules and finding love. You can buy it anywhere books are sold and then get a juicy bonus at datebrazen.com slash book. The bonus is the dating life fix. My top 10 podcast episodes to get unstuck right now. And be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. You’ve got this and I’ve got your back.