Today on The Date Brazen Podcast, I’m talking to Julie Krafchick and Yue Xu– dating and relationship experts and co-hosts of Dateable, one of the top podcasts on modern relationships, featured by The New York Times, HuffPost, and Oprah Daily.

 

Tune into this episode to hear-

• Understanding your dating archetype can help you navigate relationships better.

• How to use their quiz in the Dateable book helps identify strengths and weaknesses in dating.

• How to use the “Sunday test” helps assess compatibility with a partner.

• What to expect with sexual chemistry in early dating– can it develop over time, or do you need to expect “The Spark”.

• And more!

 

Julie Krafchick & Yue Xu are active daters turned dating insiders, and top influential voices of modern dating, relationships, and connection in the digital world. They’re the authors of How To Be Dateable and the co-hosts of the podcast Dateable, which has been named one of the top podcasts about modern dating and relationships by the New York Times, The Huffington Post, Oprah Daily, and more. They’re also the hosts and executive producers of the dating experiment show Exit Interview. Julie brings her background in human-centered design and qualitative research, while Yue shares her experience as a dating coach. Together you can find them at https://www.dateablepodcast.com/ and @dateablepodcast.

Their book How to be datable comes out January 28th, 2025- TODAY!

Get Julie and Yue’s book at howtobedateable.com

And learn about their work at https://www.dateablepodcast.com/

This episode is brought to you by my free, live SHOOT YOUR SHOT CHALLENGE: From “late bloomer” to confident dater in 5 days ✨

Links:

✨  SHOOT YOUR SHOT CHALLENGE: From “late bloomer” to confident dater in 5 days ✨

Get Lily’s Book, Thank You More Please HERE.

 

Follow Lily on Instagram and Tiktok.

 

Subscribe to Lily’s Youtube channel HERE.

Show transcript:

Lily @ Date Brazen (00:05)

Hey, I’m Lily Womble, former top matchmaker and founder of Date Brazen. After setting up hundreds, I realized that with coaching, women could match themselves better than anyone else ever could. With my unconventional feminist approach, I’ve helped women around the world build courageous and self-trust-filled love lives, and now I’m here to support you. Get ready, because I’m about to share the exact steps you need to attract a soul-quenching partnership and feel amazing about yourself along the way. This is the Date Brazen podcast. Hello, gorgeous friends.

Today I am joined by two magnificent humans who have a lot to say about the world of dating that we’re in. And I’m so glad to have them on so we can have some brain trust and some like co-creation. know you’re gonna leave this episode feeling so inspired for your love life in this new year. Julie Krafchik and Yue Xu are dating and relationship experts and the co-hosts of Datable.

one of the top podcasts on modern relationships featured by the New York Times, HuffPo and Oprah Daily. They also co-produce and host the dating experiment show, Exit Interview. Julie is based in San Francisco and has nearly two decades of Silicon Valley experience where she founded the app, 500 Brunches, to encourage in-person connections, sparking the creation of Datable. Yue in LA began as a dating coach and vlogger with her work featured on Ask Men, Match and more.

She’s also a TV host and producer with appearances on MTV, AMC and NBC. Their book, How to Be Datable comes out today, January 28th, 2025. And I’m so excited to get into it. Welcome y’all. What an introduction. I know. of my favorites. Same. We’re so excited to be back with you. Oh my God. Well, it was an honor to be on your podcast and y’all were so generous to help me promote Thank You More Please, my book. And as a fellow,

book writer on dating and relationships. think that our books are very, you know, tooting our own horn, but our books are needed. Oh, yes. Absolutely. Because there’s so much bullshit out there. I think we are very much aligned with you and I, you know, people loved our conversation on our podcast with you because just this main character energy, just putting your needs forward and not succumbing to the BS that’s dating today. Oh my God. So important. Now more than ever.

Yes. So I think that just naming that we’re recording this in 2024 because iconically book launches take a long time to do. we’re talking about this book before it comes out. How are y’all feeling about the book and having a book out in the world? Like finally birthed

this baby, you know? It’s like, true. Yes. You kind of feel like Brad and Angelina for a while when they’re hiding their kids faces. Like that’s basically Julie and I are Brad and Angelina hiding our kids faces. That’s comparison. Who is who? Well, I’m obviously Brad Pitt. obviously. Okay. Okay. I wanted Angelina so it works out. Classically handsome. Obviously. Timeless.

And Julie is classically gorgeous. Yeah, exactly. Angelina. I mean, how hot is Angelin Jolie and Mr. and Mrs. Smith? can’t, we can’t overstate and Julie bring that vibe to the McFlaunch party. Oh, I’m bringing it now. That’s our new energy. Remember that slit that she had in that dress that everybody couldn’t stop talking about at that award show? don’t remember what it was. 100%. Great. I love that for you.

I think though, like, it’s been really exciting. You know, obviously you mentioned like we’re doing this before the book actually goes out, but we’ve actually now been talking to people that have read the book and just seeing like how much they’re connecting the dots. And they’re like, I wish I had this earlier in my life, or this is still helping me. Like we had another podcast we did where the host was in it right this minute. And she’s like, this is what I needed at this minute to get through my current situation. And actually

see the person I’m dating is really good for me. I’m so excited to get into all the nuts and bolts and help people find connect to that joy with dating. And I want to own that there’s a lot going on in the world that is out of our control that is very frightening. know, in thinking about why talk about dating right now, I’m reminded that, you know, dating is a microcosm of every hope, joy, dream, fear, insecurity, desire that we have as humans.

And the desire to find partnership exists for people. people, single people we know are also whole as they are right now. This is a way that you can care for yourself today, I think, by listening to this episode and really caring for your desires. I just wanted to name that. Thank you. Appreciate think, Lily, what you said, though, about the control, I’m glad you used that word. There’s so much out of our control. I think we think dating is out of our control.

Like you see people that are like, you know, the apps control dating or you know, the person that didn’t text me back or the situation chip I’m in. Like I feel at the mercy. I that’s the message that both you and us bring forward is that you actually are in control and that we can change that mentality. Well, tell me how, like give the people at home a little bit of background into both of you and how you got into this podcast and how you like came to create this book. want to hear about it.

I think just like every dater out there, we all think we have so many dating stories and we can’t wait to share them. And yes, we had some really funny dating stories when Julie and I met and we said, let’s start a dating podcast where we and our friends can share our dating stories. And at some point we were like, you know what, it’s good to share stories to know we’re not alone in this, but can we take some action here? Like dating doesn’t need to be this hard or overwhelming.

And it’s starting to feel really hard. And in this moment in time, and I’m sure many of your listeners are feeling that same way, like dating is really hard. How do I start enjoying dating again? So when Julie and I first met, I had just come out of a long career as a dating coach where I helped men trick women into liking them.

And I was really excited to bring those antics into my own dating life, because it was so easy to hack my way into getting someone to like me back. But then there was this missing piece in my heart where I felt like I never went deep with anybody. It was always just surface level. We can go through some really fun dates, and I would entertain them with my performative antics.

and they would find me entertaining and interesting, but then the relationship wouldn’t actually go anywhere. So I wanted to really dive deep into why I wasn’t getting the connections and deepening the connections that I once thought that I was like the expert at, you know, because I helped so many clients to do that. Tell me about the career you had before this one with the like working with men.

Your words, I helped men trick women into liking them. What do you mean? Say more. What was that like for you? what, I want to know. You know, I’m not proud of my early years as a dating coach because I was in my early twenties. I fell into this career. How did you fall into it? I was living in New York and there were a lot of men on Wall Street who

were very interested in getting women to like them and getting them, you know, to go out with them without putting in the effort. So I happened to have met one of them at a bar and he was like, you seem like, know, a lot about dating and connection, like getting people to like you back. Maybe I can just hire you to be a dating coach. never even knew that was a career path I could take. So he was client number one and

through word of mouth, I expanded my client portfolio and everybody wanted these short term gains. It’s just like, how do I get this girl to call me back? How do I get to a third date with someone? But then as the years went by, the evolution of what people wanted was different. mean, my first client was eventually like, Yue, I want to be in a serious relationship. I’m looking for a marriage now. And I was like, ugh.

I don’t know how to get you there. And that’s when I sort of came out of that career path because I was like, wait, if I can’t get to that for my clients, how do I do that for myself? I need to figure that out for myself first. And what was the turning point for you of like exiting that chapter of your career?

I think the turning point was I went through a major heartbreak when I lived in New York. I really wanted to be in a relationship with this guy that I thought I was in love with. Yet all of my actions were pointing to the other way. I mean, we call this relationship chicken in our book and we’ve talked about it on, when you came on our show too, it’s like all of my actions were pointing to the game playing and the rules and anything but my authentic self.

So when I did finally go to him and say, I want to be in a relationship with you, he was like, Whoa, where did this come from? I had no idea. I knew he wanted that. And he told, he broke my heart. I, I was so broken that I left New York. I moved to Beijing, like as far away as possible. had to break up with the city you were in, the apartment you were in, like you had to do all of it. I ran away. That’s what I did. I ran away.

But I’m glad that that happened to me because it was such a wake up call to say that dating it. What is my dating? Why here? Like, why am I dating in the first place? And if it’s not for deepening connections with people, then why am I even doing this? Yeah, for sure. Julie, how about you? How did you get into that? So fascinating. Yes, tell me more.

I mean, I don’t think I ever set out to be a dating expert. In fact, I was struggling in this area myself. Like I was the one that I consider myself a later bloomer. Like I feel like I didn’t really start dating until like late twenties. And you know, at that point I did what I did in school or work. I bought all the books, tried to catch up, learn the rules. Again, I was also looking for that like fast track in the short cut because

I didn’t know what it meant to deeply connect with someone and to be in a relationship. I just saw the way the culture portrayed dating and falling in love and all of that. So I just had no idea. And I think what was hard is this was before podcasts were out, when dating was more private, and I thought I was alone. I thought something was fundamentally wrong with me.

that I couldn’t get to like the third date. Now looking back, it’s because I was not myself at all. I was playing by these rules and being this person that I thought people would want to choose instead of being the chooser and being like, what do I need? What do I want? Who’s good for me? And when Yue and I met, it was actually at a really interesting time because I actually did a lot of that self work, got to a better place, met someone that I fell madly in love with.

thought was the one, because when you haven’t had that in so long, when you’ve had just like the string of situation chips or the unrequited loves or the one sidedness, when you meet someone that actually is like, you’re into, they’re into you, like all of it’s good, you’re like, great, I did it, we can move forward. But what I didn’t realize is, even when someone can love you and like want to be in a relationship, it doesn’t always mean that they have the capacity for it.

and that they are the right partner for you. So it was definitely like one of those like glass shattering instances where my heart also completely broke and did not get out of bed for days when we broke up. The first time this continued on for many years. But then you and I, like we met through a mutual friend and think you, was confused about dating because it was also that pivotal point where like dating apps were starting to be mainstream and take over.

And was a lot of confusion around gender roles and like everything was at a shakeup. the two of us met and we were just like, we got to talk about this. We did all the time with us, between us and friends. And then we’re like, you know what, let’s make a podcast. And this was 2016 before podcasts were really a thing. think maybe it was even earlier it launched in 2016. So we really had no idea. had like cereal as like a benchmark.

podcast, but we’re like, yeah, let’s just get a recorder and talk to friends. you know, it became so much more as the years went on. You really had the foresight to start a podcast. Truly. I mean, that is the early podcasting days. Yeah, it was. And I think it was because we were confused and we wanted answers. And that’s really what we said. I mean, serial, was the mystery. was like, this is the mystery of dating.

Yes, like true crime episodes are about like, why didn’t like what the fuck just happened on this date? don’t understand. Yeah, for sure. think it took us like we could not have written this book then. Like we needed that decade to talk to thousands of daters and experts and really dig into like why dating was the way it was and why people felt so like depleted by it. When you think of it, it should be a joyous activity like right.

like fun and exciting, yet that is not the sentiment. So what we’ve come to realize is like the way dating is set up right now, it’s setting us up all to fail. And like, we really think that you don’t need to be good at dating the way it is now, the way it currently is, because everything is around disconnection instead of connection. Well, speaking of like helping people think about it differently,

I love that the book starts with a quiz. Who doesn’t love a quiz? When I see a quiz in a book, I’m like, I’m going to get different colored pens out. Tell me about the quiz and like how people’s results can really help them understand themselves better and their dating life better. And I also want to know what

What do think people are surprised by? So all of those, I want to talk about the quiz. Talk to me. We’re excited about the quiz as well. It’s your dating archetype assessment, which is really just your style of dating. And it comes from our over 10 years of talking to daters where it feels like there are certain behaviors and attitudes in daters that put them in certain buckets. We want to do an assessment where we can highlight

where people’s strengths are in terms of their behaviors and attitudes for a stating, but also what may be holding them back. And the beauty of this assessment is you will probably be more than one. There’s a lot of overlapping results, and that’s a great thing because it just shows that we have many strengths and many things that may be holding you back. So I’m curious, Lily, did you take the assessment? Did you take the quiz? I think that I’m the energizer.

Energizer Bunny performing a lot of energy. Like I get energy from meeting people and I want to impress them. want to, you know, and I think that that has really, really guided me in my dating life before I met Chris for sure. Yeah. And I think you could probably look back to some of that where that was your greatest asset. Like light, like especially for that one, you know, that person is very chris charismatic and they light up the room. They have a lot of social energy and easy to talk with.

But then some of the downsides of that one, because all of them have the strengths and weaknesses, is maybe you are just go, go, go, not really reflecting about what you truly want and need. you know, the connection is more surface level because you’re always filling your calendar. So I think with all of them, it’s really important. And why we like this too is what you are in life, like in other parts of life, some of that bleeds into dating.

But then also sometimes we are different in dating world. So we have like a friend, asked like, what was surprising? Like we had a friend that took it and she was like, she got a thinker and she’s like, I don’t see that. And the thinker is, you know, the person that really thinks things through, which again is an asset because you want someone that overthinking of it all over thinking is what can be problematic and not making action all that. And she’s like,

I don’t think I’m a thinker. And you and I were like, you are absolutely a thinker. if you want to look at our text messages, you are a thinker to the chorus. But I think sometimes we don’t know in ourselves, like what other people see. So it’s eye-opening for that. And then there might be instances too that it’s helpful to know how the people you date are too, because that can explain a lot. Like for instance, a thinker, my partner is a thinker to the core.

sometimes like when he’s slower to make decisions, I’m like, are you unsure? Are you hesitant? Like I take it personally because I’m a dreamer. That’s mine. That’s my biggest one. And to him though, it’s actually an asset because he’s like, by the time I’ve decided, I have decided, I am committed. am all in. And I’ve learned to actually appreciate that and see that as a benefit instead of being like, are you unsure? Are you scared?

Yue, what about you? How has this quiz impacted your sense of self in your dating, in your love life? It just brings up a lot of, you know, lot of behaviors that I always thought was part of who I am. You know, I was really drawn. So I’m a maverick and maverick is someone who is ultra independent, who really enjoys their space and gives their partner space and who

is in a relationship that person who can be independent and not so much like I need to be around my partner all the time. what holds me back all the time is my attachment to being this independent person that I don’t necessarily allow people in. And I also run away from hard problems or from conflicts or from conversations. And back

you know, when I didn’t know that I was a maverick, I would say, well, I’m just that independent girl. Like I’m making decisions. And if I pick up and leave, it’s because it’s my own, it’s my own choice to leave. But now looking back, okay, I get it now. I was running away because I was so protective of this independence that I was doing it in lieu of having a deeper connection with someone. So the maverick really rang true for me.

through and through because it’s like, I can still be attached to being independent. That’s great. But I also need to allow other people into my life while exercising the independence. sure. everything has a light and a shadow, like y’all are saying with these quiz results. And I do think that the hyperindependence that people have learned after years of being let down or being traumatized or can really impact

Like what you’re saying, like thinking like I’m just independent and that’s just what it is and I don’t need anybody and that’s true. You don’t but and you get to be supported. I think that that’s a great like both and that y’all bring up. It’s definitely a both and like yeah and through because yeah, like I my two are the dreamer achiever. are the one time achiever was the one type that y’all that we haven’t touched on. So just for you listening.

There’s five, achiever, dreamer, energizer, maverick, or thinker. Tell me about the achiever, Julie. Yeah, so the achiever is the person that dates with purpose and conviction. know what they want. They go after it. They’re resilient. They’re perseverant. All the stuff, which is really good. The downside is they’re so focused on the milestones and getting to that next level and stage that sometimes you don’t stay

present. And also, maybe you stay in the wrong relationship because you don’t want to start over again, or you’re forcing something upstream that’s just not happening. Because you’re like, need to win, I need to get to that next stage. And for me, as the dreamer, we kind of touched on this one, but it’s like the person that loves so fully the, you know, romantic at heart wants the whole big love story is often

over giving to people, which again, very positive in some ways, but then you give the 10 chances to someone that simply doesn’t deserve it. And when I hybrid it achiever and dreamer, you could see how that could be a really detrimental path. And like, that was my biggest downfall in dating is I stayed with the wrong people for too long. And because I had this fantasy in my head of what the relationship could be, and that did not match reality.

Yeah, the right person. That’s a huge asset to love so big, but I wasn’t giving it to the right people. Right. Well, looking for those milestones with the person like for me with the energizer, I think that just like fits me to a T the charisma and the like, I want you to like me and I want you to feel like you choose me and of course you do because I’m amazing. But really underneath the surface, it was this deep well of like

I don’t feel like I’m enough. feel like I’m too much. need you to like me. This energy that I was putting out, which is just my life’s work, I think for myself, is like getting a little more quiet and not performing as much to prove my worth. But I do think that I was looking for milestones with just anybody. Yeah. Who wanted to be with me. I think definitely because I wanted to prove that I was

that a relationship was possible for me after being a late bloomer. And I think underneath all of these, I’m hearing this, like, the sort of shadow always comes back to, need to prove that, or I need to show that I’m worthy as possible. That’s a line that I hear throughout all of them with the shadow. Does that ruzzle? I think the shadow also is, I want to control the situation so that I don’t get hurt. I to be safe. Yeah.

Yeah, and it comes out of, like, I think we think control is if we know the milestones, if we can get someone to like us back, if we can be the one running away, then we’re controlling the situation. That’s actually letting go of control to some, you’re being reactive, right? So in our book, we’re kind of like, how do we flip the script on this? Like what we thought was control before, that’s actually not, you’re actually relinquishing control.

How do you gain back that agency so that you can control how you interpret, how you react, your behaviors, and how you drive the situation? But you can never control the outcome. The more you try to control the outcome, the less you’re going to enjoy the present.

I mean, here’s a perfect example. Like this is how I overcame this need for control in this, especially the achievement mentality. It was, I still wanted a relationship that didn’t go away that, you know, intention and what I wanted out there. got more clear of what that relationship looks like, which in our book, we have a partner equation that helps you find that perfectly imperfect person for you. Cause there is no perfect person. putting that out there.

But I think getting clear of like what it actually is that you want beyond just the, want a relationship or I want someone that’s super important because then that allows you to be in control of who you choose. Because at that point it was relinquishing the outcome of each date. Like if someone didn’t show up the way I wanted or they said like, this isn’t right for me. I was like, okay, you know, moving on, we’re going to clear the path.

and find the right person. Like I remember right before my partner, I met this guy and I was like super into him from the get go. And this was kind of sad, like saying it back, this was over COVID, this does excuse some of it. We were like virtual, so like it was very hot and heavy and I was like across the country at the time. And then coming back, we all these plans were like when I was gonna come back, like I think I even said to you, like, I think this could be something. Yeah.

Of course, the second I get back, this guy is not available. All of a sudden works too busy. have family things going on and it was hard to rectify because you went from someone that was so all about it to not. at this point I didn’t even meet this person. So I’m like, it can’t be me. Like maybe I should give them a chance. Maybe I should let this play out. And then I’m like, wait, I want someone that prioritizes a relationship. I want someone that

makes an hour, like come on, it’s an hour to literally, literally an hour of your time. Yeah. Or even proactive call me on the phone for 10 minutes. Right. Like we are not talking about a lot of time. And at that point I was like, I’m to let this person go because this is not what I want. This is right. Good for you. And then, I don’t know, a month later, I met my current partner who I never had to worry about that stuff with. Right. Right. Right. I think that the, that like,

people in terms of committing or not committing. It’s easy to give people chances who are being flaky if you have this deeper well of insecurity. I mean, I know I did that. mean, my ex literally, like, I called him when my parents told me they were getting a divorce. And he was like, I’m sorry, I can’t meet up with you today. have plans with a friend.

I stayed with him for like three more months. Right. But I don’t think I’ve ever, I don’t know if I’ve told that story on the podcast, but like so real this idea of like showing up, like giving excuses for people who are flaky or who treat us poorly. And I think it’s just like reclaiming your agency in this dating process and allowing people to show you who they are in their actions. Yeah.

I mean, if I looked at what was happening in my dating life, that time period that I mentioned before I met my partner, past V would have been so depleted because I got rejected more than ever before in that period. But this time around, I did not view it that way. I was like, this is just someone making room for the right person. I’m getting more clear about what I…

wanted, but it took that work and that shift of energy. And again, to get out of that mentality of like, I need a bend over backwards for other people. There’s not enough people out there. Like some of the stuff we hear all the time. So that’s really like our message and what we’ve learned from dateable. It’s like, you know, there’s so many factors and dating, but the one that you can control is how you show up and how you perceive things and what you let get in your way versus you.

look at as, you know, like what you say, blessed release, moving on. Well, talking about control, I think this is a really important topic for folks because it can get murky of like, when do I take action and shoot my shot? When do I step back and let them show me who they are? Like all these things. And you’ll outline it perfectly on page 209. 209. Don’t even worry about it because Datable has a full ass checklist.

Yeah, we do. And literally, love people love a step by step. People love it. They’re going to love this book. Page 209, two columns, when to take control and when to relinquish control. I think this is so brilliant because people really, I think people really respond to a clear like on one hand, it’s like, okay, yes, message first on a dating app when to take control, when to relinquish control, not checking in again if they don’t answer.

Like so simple but so important and something that a lot of people don’t do. Like they’re like obsessively checking or obsessively like looking at it. Can you talk? I mean, I could go out and list them. Can you talk about what you see on, you know, in talking to daters and supporting people dating in the conversation around when to take control and when to relinquish it?

I think what has clicked for me is when you start telling yourself stories, that’s when you need to take control of something. Take action. do you mean when you tell yourself stories? So if I’m waiting for a text back and instead of me normally going into a story, this person doesn’t like me or they’re too busy at work or blah, blah, blah. Yeah. That’s a moment for me to say, okay, actually I can get an answer. I can just text them.

Right. Instead of ruminating on whatever this made up story that is definitely not true. So that’s the list. You can kind of see the underlying theme of all of them is when you have that first, you can do the initiation or when you can just get an answer. That’s when you can take control. Get clarity. Exactly. Clarity. That’s ultimately what it is. We hear people, you know, this is like the…

archaic way of thinking of like, they won’t like me anymore if I take control or if I text first, like all of this, just, really gets me. The right person is going to be super happy that you texted that. And I had to come to terms with this because for years I subscribed to this, but I was like, the partner I want to be with, I want to be able to text them whenever I want to text them. And if I can’t do that, why am I with this person?

So I think we really need to rethink some of those mentalities also. And like the whole point of time wasted, this is a big one in dating. We’re all so afraid to waste time with the wrong people. But in our opinion, like what Yue was saying, sitting around waiting for that text, ruminating, that is time expended. That is a lot of time and energy that you are putting out there without even connecting to another human being.

Would it you rather just know, like get an answer? Like we have the, on our Instagram, we’ll put up like texts to send like when people are in like. I think those are so good by the way. I’m so good. if you’re not already following, dateable, what is your Instagram handle again? Just dateable podcasts. Dateable podcasts on Instagram. Y’all put out so many helpful, like tactical texts that people can use to get clarity. Continue.

Keep going. But then we’ll get these trolls and people that are like, I would never send that. Like, I have too much pride to send that. like, women don’t, or do you even date men? Men don’t respond to this. And it’s like, okay, well, we don’t know what your life is. But at the same time, it’s like, you have to look at yourself. We call it like being the CEO of your love life. Like you have, you’re the one in control again. We’re going back to that. But then also it’s like,

You have only limited time and energy. Why not invest it in things that fill your cup, bring you joy? Again, back to, would rather send that text even knowing that I’m not gonna get like the response. Usually when you’re sending a text to someone that’s not showing up for you, they’re not gonna get your text and just be like, yeah, you’re right. Let me change my behavior. Most likely you’re gonna get the closure of just like, yeah, this is the right fit or.

whatever, so people will say like, send the text? The point is, so then you move on. This person is cleared out of your path. You are not spending time wondering about them. If you can truly remove yourself from this person, you don’t need to send the text. But most of us cannot do that. And we just spend our time spinning our wheels on people and things that don’t matter. Yeah. I think this goes back to your BDE.

that you talk about throughout the book. You have sections throughout the book that are big, datable energy. Can you tell me, tell us about that? I mean, it’s just like a reminder of here’s how you can have agency over your love life, or here’s where you can spend your time more wisely. And the BDE is really just to reclaim that energy back. it’s a main character energy too. It’s like reclaim your agency.

And what we find with a lot of modern dating wise setting us up to fail is that we think we are in control. We think we got that BDE when we’re dating. We actually call this a settling paradox because we were like, I don’t want to settle. I deserve this, blah, blah, blah. When you’re on the apps, you’re like, I need someone over six feet. I need this, this, that. But then you look at what you actually settle for, like the behaviors and people.

that you allow into your life. That’s the settling part. And that’s the part we don’t ever talk about. It’s like, why are you chasing after the person who’s not consistently communicating with you? Yet you’re like, I need someone who went to Harvard. Like, it just, doesn’t make any sense because, and then we realized it doesn’t make sense because we glamorize the big gestures. like, you know, movies, TV to our friends. We’re like,

I went on a date with a guy, he’s so great. We went to the show and he did this for me. Like that’s newsworthy. But if you don’t go to your friends and you’re like, oh, he texts me back every time. helps plan great dates that are consistent and communicates when he’s going out of town and tells me. Who tells their friends that, right? Who’s like writing a script around that on TV? Cause it’s not glamorous. So all we see are like the big passionate

how wows, you know? But we don’t talk about like the actual actions and characteristics of a good partner that matter. I want to talk about two things. I want to talk about the dating North star.

And I want to talk about the seven things that matter when finding a partner. We might can just tease a few of them. We don’t have to get into all seven unless you want to. But I want to encourage people to get the book from their local bookstore or their library or wherever you buy books. Let’s start with the dating North Star. What is it and how can people build it? Yeah. I mean, I think I was actually talking about this earlier in my own journey of like getting clear of what it was I wanted and needed was so important.

because when we like pulse people in our audience, it’s like, why are you dating? To be in a relationship, to find my life partner. All of these are valid things, but they are not what’s happening today. And it’s also vague, right? It’s like, you want to be in a relationship, but more importantly, you want to be in the right relationship for you. So how do you go about doing that? So what the North Star is, it’s a combination of what’s your dating, why.

What’s the reason that you’re dating today? What are you trying to get out of dating? And there’s actually like the three whys technique that is, you know, something that’s not invented by us. So like that’s been in Toyota, think, or CoinDip, but it’s in a lot of research and, different studies. And what it does is it

tries to ask you why three times to get to the root of what that why is. So that could be a tool if you’re struggling of like, is your dating why? We also help walk you through it in the book too. But again, it’s getting to that deeper meaning of like, what is it you really want? And we even encourage people to like leave out relationship and partner in their why to really get to the core. And then the second part of the North Star is what are your core needs?

because we really believe the only way to take control of your dating life and find the right person for you is to understand the needs, which is very in line with your beliefs and like all we’ve talked about with your book too, and you know, getting to the core of that. So we encourage people to, you know, of course you could have more than three needs, but we try to get to like the top three needs.

that you look at that you need in a partner. And what’s interesting is, again, this is outlined in the book for people that need more of this, but like, if you look at what’s bothering you the most in dating today, then actually can get turned into one of your core needs. What is it that’s lacking? Can you give an example? Sure. I think for me, this actually kind of will segue us into like the seven things that matter too. For me,

I realized consistency was a core need and I never thought about it before. Like in theory, people be like, do you want a consistent partner? be like, yeah, sure. Of course. But it wasn’t something that was at the forefront of when I was looking for a partner. was prioritizing things like, are they fun? Are they funny? Like, do they have good style? Like, are they in with the right crowds? Like superficial stuff that did not matter. And then with consistency,

biggest thing that got me in dating was when people didn’t text back or when they said that we’d have plans and that I didn’t hear from them. And that gave me so much anxiety and dating. if I was to turn to like, what is that one thing that really gets me? I was like, okay. And the opposite of that is consistency. When I met my partner, that was first and foremost for me. And we actually have that as in the top.

The seven things that matter, again, this is meant as like a gut check, like are you with someone that’s worth investing more time in? The first one is consistency. Because in our opinion, if that’s not there, nothing else matters. They can be the greatest person in the world, but if they’re not showing up for you, who cares? So it’s not that that’s the only thing that matters. could let you share some of the others, but like that’s the baseline.

having that North Star, I was able to refocus and really lead people in and out based on that baseline. Yeah. Centering your needs. Yeah. What a thought. How revolutionary. is. It is. don’t think that’s part that’s crazy. really is. Because we’ve been taught to do the opposite as women and people socialize as women, I think. Yue, what were you going to say? What are some more of the seven?

One of the seven, one of them that I really love is the Sunday test. We call it the Sunday test. And it’s really just like, can you just do nothing with this person just to be with them? And we find that so many daters, when they talk about dating, it’s so activities based. Like the amount of questions we get about what should we do on a second date or a third date? What should you do for the, like it doesn’t.

really shouldn’t matter the activities. Do you actually like the person you’re hanging out with? So the Sunday test is like that, you know, the day before the Monday comes and the week comes, do you want to decompress with this person and like basically just sit around, do nothing? That’s so telling, isn’t it? It’s like, can you decompress with someone? I think even in friendship, that is such a test of like, what kind of friendship is this going to be? Is this going to be a friendship that I’m like,

I’m, it’s kind of, you know, like you gotta, it’s a lot of energy to be around them. And I need to go take a nap. Or is this going to be a friendship that is like restorative? And I can be quiet with them or beside them. think same, same for a romantic relationship. just think the craziest part about how we date and evaluate dates is it’s on these big nights out or the activity, the event.

it’s through the date lens, but it’s not looking at like, is this person a good life partner? Someone that, know, when things get tough, that’s another one on the seven things like, can we manage conflict together? And you know, I will always remember we had Connor Beaton and Vianna Farin, which they’re like big couple in like, she’s a therapist, he’s a coach. And we had them on to talk about like, what makes a healthy relationship.

in literally the entire time we talked about conflict and I was like, I was not expecting that to be entire thing. But we think of conflict as fighting and it’s like a small piece of it, I think. It’s like with two people, two humans, there’s always going to be friction. We are not thinking the exact same way as our partner, even in the healthiest of relationships. And you need to be able to be one open with your partner about

different points of views and how you’re feeling, how they’re feeling and figure out how do you manage that together? And if that’s not there, that’s really hard. And people might be saying, well, how do I know that in early dating? It is still there at early dating. We’re just afraid to bring it up to people. get questions all the time of like, you know, I don’t want to like bring this up because it’s too early. And it’s like, this is actually the best time to bring it up. And it doesn’t need to be in a confrontational way.

But then you get to see how you two work through it and how they react without that info. How do you know that this person is someone worth investing in? And, you know, and just like, you know, this is page 227 where you’re talking about navigating conflict, like the Sunday test and then conflict. And I think that, God, it’s so important to be able to.

sit in discomfort with yourself and learn that skill of like reckoning with your own feelings, reckoning with your own opinions, reckoning with your own wants and needs so that you can show up in this new relationship and be like, what have you got? Like, we gonna, are we gonna be able to through this? Right. And I think that like, it’s so, I remember, you know, feeling so uncomfortable with myself in new relationships before I had these skills. And,

which comes from family of origin stuff. comes from like all of this is so connected. But I remember with Chris, when we started building our relationship, navigating conflict happened. And people always ask me like, well, how will I know if it’s right if the beginning sometimes feels hard or sometimes feels uncomfortable or like there are things that we don’t agree on? Is it right or is it not right? Should it feel easy all the time? Should it not? Like, what is that?

And I just think that it’s not a binary and you’re, you know, you’re sharing in this conflict section that it’s always this co-creation. I love that. I love that you said building when we were building this relationship, you’re always going to be building a relationship with someone. You’re always laying down the bricks. Like there’s no already made just like out of the box relationship, but we feel like a partner comes already kind of like built and that’s not.

That’s not how a relationship starts. So I love that you said that. And also the conflict piece goes into one of the other seven things that matter is what do they bring out of you? What does your partner bring out of you, especially during a time of conflict? I remember being with a partner who always brought out the most anxious side of me. I’m not anxious at all. I’m not an anxious person. But why was this person bringing out the side of me that I didn’t love?

In conflict, you can really assess that because a conflict could be a really healthy conflict if the other person brings out the expansive side of you, the compassionate side of you, the empathetic side of you, right? And like, that’s great way to assess. It’s not the, oh, the subject matter is how, what you trigger out of each other. sure. I think the final thing that I want to talk about with the seven.

unless something else comes up and then we go there, is the sexual chemistry piece because we’re talking about building and growing. And this brings me to the conversation that I think y’all probably have all the time. I have all the time, which is like, is it the spark or is it the slow burn? if I, do I know if I have enough sexual chemistry? What if I’m not attracted at first and does it grow? And like, what is y’all’s opinion on spark versus slow burn?

and sexual chemistry being there versus not. Can you talk about that? Yeah, I mean, I think we wanted to put it on this list because I think we can’t ignore that either. And when we have the settling paradox, for instance, we’re not telling you to like settle for someone that you find boring or not attractive. Like that is not the message. It’s more of just like prioritizing the things that actually matter. But you should absolutely be with someone that lights you up. Like that is a given.

So we wanted to make sure it made the list for that reason alone too. In terms of like the slow burn versus the spark, this actually is, you know, what we call, it’s part of like the expectation of love on demand, which is another trap that we think, you know, in all these traps, like, it’s not like you’re doing something wrong. It’s the way modern dating is that’s, you know, trapping us. Like we believe everyone’s dateable. It’s just modern dating that’s getting in our way.

And with the spark, like we are conditioned to believe that we should feel it right away. We should know if this person is the one, because we don’t want to waste time. We don’t want to keep going because you know, it’s just, we don’t have that, but that is not the truth. Connection builds over time. And I think where the line is, if you feel nothing for this person, if you feel repulsed by them, like you feel like you have zero connection, do not go on a second date, like save both of you.

But if you’re like curious, if you are intrigued, if you’re like, they’re like cute or attractive, but they’re not my usual type, keep going. can you feel it building? And we’re not saying like, you know, I think it’s not a great situation for either person. If like years down the line, you’re just like, I don’t know, I still don’t feel it. Like a couple dates in, like see if it’s building. That’s not that much time to be putting towards.

And that could end up being like the make or break to have that relationship and person that you’re ending, you end up being like wildly attracted to. I agree. think, you know, nothing comes from nothing. And so like, if there’s nothing, then there’ll be nothing. And so giving yourself permission to, to have the, you know, to listen for the curiosity, if it’s there, keep going. Totally agree. I think that’s beautiful.

I also think that it’s so valuable that you give all of these sort of not to be too achiever, which is like, but you do give very clear statements and things for people to think about, things for people to sink their teeth into in terms of like, am I or am I not on the right path? Like you give the roadmap for people to know that they are on the right path to finding their right partner and for them to release the anxiety of

people pleasing or like playing the numbers game or centering other people. think this book does a really beautiful job of helping data center themselves and really trust what they want. And in doing so, hope that I know it’ll help them feel that dating is more enjoyable and hopefully more pleasurable and joyful on the path to meeting their person. I think this book is very successful at that mission and I’m just so excited for y’all for it to be out in the world.

I want to know, know, last question for both of you. What do you hope readers take away or like feel after reading this book?

Ooh, very good question. mean, hope is the word. We hope that people don’t give up on love and dating. It’s all worth it. Having a connection with anybody, even if it doesn’t go into a long-term romantic relationship, it’s so worth it. That’s what makes humans so special. So what I hope readers take away is having that hope that there is plenty of connections to be had.

and that everybody’s equipped with the skills to deepen those connections and to seize every opportunity to deepen a connection. That’s what’s gonna make dating so much more enjoyable. I agree. I think you said it so well too, Lillia. Like what people can get out of it 100 % on all of that. think what comes to mind for me is empowered. I want people to feel like they…

they got this, like it’s gonna happen for them. If this is something they want, it’s going to happen. You know, in dating, like we’re just hearing so many people feel like they’re at the mercy of dating and other people. And that is not the mentality that’s gonna be good for anyone’s mental health. It’s not gonna set you up to find that right person. And that like, can’t believe this was possible type of relationship that like we really believe is out there. Like I think for…

UA and I, a big piece of what we learned from dateable is like, how do we actually like deconstruct dating and the way it is and put ourselves in that like driver’s seat and feel empowered while we’re dating? And that’s what I hope to give people is that they also feel the same way and we can get out of this like mentality we’ve been in the last couple years of like dating is the worst. It’s so terrible out there. It’s a hellscape, like all of that.

How do we get out of that and be like, I actually can enjoy it. I can meet great people. I can have the love life I’ve always wanted. So good. Well, thank you both so much for coming on. I’m excited for people to get your book. I’ve loved having your book and I can’t wait to recommend it. I think that our books are beautiful in conversation with one another. And I’m grateful for all your time. Where can people find you? Where can people buy the book?

easiest way is to just go anywhere books are sold, but you can also go on our website, howtobedatable.com. That’s where you find all that book info. can go on datablepodcast.com and find even more info about us and the book as well. And even just talking about how great our books are, I just, truly feel like this is

We are like the best companion books to each other. Even the colors go well together, but I think there is so much synergy between, yeah, exactly. Look at really just like blend together. What we hope people will do is buy both of our books together and read them in tandem because there is so much synergy, but also there’s like the takeaways and the actions. There’s just a lot that can help people.

on a more holistic level. Yep. You could find us anywhere podcasts are too, and at dateable podcasts if you want those texts that we mentioned. Awesome. We’ll put all that in the show notes of the episode and we’ve linked your book in the description of this episode. So thank you both for coming on. Julie, you a, um, really grateful for you and excited for your book to be out in the world. Congrats. Thanks, Lily. Bye y’all. Bye.

Thanks for listening to the Date Brazen podcast. If you liked this episode, then you’re going to freaking love my book. Thank you more please. It’s my proven step-by-step feminist guide to breaking dumb dating rules and finding love. You can buy it anywhere books are sold and then get a juicy bonus at datebrazen.com slash book. The bonus is the dating life fix. My top 10 podcast episodes to get unstuck right now. And be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. You’ve got this and I’ve got your back.